LEO saw the gun

This is a discussion on LEO saw the gun within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I think that all of you should go back and read the original scenario as posted line for line. Nowhere did I read that the ...

Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 132

Thread: LEO saw the gun

  1. #61
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    34,573

    Question

    I think that all of you should go back and read the original scenario as posted line for line.

    Nowhere did I read that the officer pointed his gun at any of the occupants of the vehicle.

    I read that the officer drew his firearm with his finger on the trigger and then started screaming "Hands On The Dash - now your hands on the steering wheel!"
    I do not see a muzzle direction mentioned there. Do you?
    So where do you guys get the officer sticking a gun in somebodys face?
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #62
    Member Array Joey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Monroe Ga.
    Posts
    362
    Quote Originally Posted by mpbond View Post
    File a complaint and be sure to mention his finger control (or lack there of) to his superiors.

    Definitely a case of "Little Man's Syndrome".
    I agree!

  4. #63
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,626
    Forget the badge and the uniform and ask whether what he did was reasonable or not
    You cant forget the badge or the uniform it was the key player here. Was what he did reasonable? In his opinion it was. In your opinion it wasn't. Fact of the matter is, in that situation only his opinion matters.He did what he felt he had to do.

    End of story.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  5. #64
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    34,573
    OK - if you remove all of the emotion, anger, personal comments, inappropriate comments by the officer (keeping in mind that YELLING and barking orders is standard and taught Police procedure in order to gain Shock Advantage and immediate control of a scenario) & then let's also remove the likely justified but still vindictive comments by the author of the thread and here is basically exactly and step by step - what went down:

    Approached for license plate light being out.

    Officer approaches the car spots firearm on the seat.

    At that point he draws his weapon (whoops! with poor trigger control) and orders (yelling) for the occupants to keep their hands visible.

    Orders the driver out of the vehicle - calls for assistance - while ordering the driver out of the vehicle driver states that she (his wife) has a permit.

    Officer states it's a concealed permit and I can see the firearm so it's not concealed.

    Cuffs the driver and asks the driver if he has any weapons on him.

    Driver states that he has a permit.

    At this point back up arrives.

    Back Up extracts (wife) passenger and takes control of the exposed weapon in the vehicle.

    Simultaneously first officer locates and secures firearm and other weapons on the driver and takes his wallet for the ID.

    Driver is place into one patrol car - Wife is placed into the other.

    Vehicle is searched.

    Wifes purse gets dumped on the vehicle hood to inspect contents.

    Officer states as soon as license clears the guns will be returned and the driver and his wife can go.

    Firearms are returned to their owners.

    Officer tells driver to get his license plate light fixed.

    Driver and his wife are shaken up but, are free to go.

  6. #65
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,626
    Sounds pretty routine to me.Perhaps not as smooth as could have been but still routine.
    I'm really kind of suprised he didnt get a ticket for the light being out.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  7. #66
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    34,573
    Naturally I'm not familiar with Washington State laws concerning having an exposed weapon visible on the seat while in the vehicle on a license to carry concealed.
    So...I can't say what the exact correct Police action should have been.

    My point is that obviously the exposed firearm on the seat is what triggered the event.
    Did things get awful ugly and uncomfortable AFTER that? Yes, they did.

    Was the seemingly ultra high emotion level necessary? Probably for the most part...not.

    Were the personal comments necessary - also likely not.

    Depending on what State law is concerning having a possibly loaded firearm exposed on the front seat would determine if the proper basic Police procedure was used or not.

    If it is technically a punishable offense or a misdemeanor...then you could say they got "let off the hook"....though it certainly was quite a mess getting to that eventual final outcome.

    Now IF a LEO firearm was actually pointed directly at the occupants with a finger on the trigger then I think that would be something I would personally pursue with legal action as being dangerous and improper.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    2,616
    I have written and deleted four posts. First off I want to thank you all for the supportive posts even those who, would find fault with my wife. I do appreciate all the input. I only took exception one which I will address in my next post.
    Since I posted I have confirmed in Washington we were well within how the law says you are to carry your gun in a car provided you have a permit. Specifics in the next post, I understand the need to secure the gun I have dealt with that before. It does not require removing me from the car, yelling at my wife or me, cuffing me, touching me or placing me in a patrol car. One point everyone seemed to have missed was he did not secure the gun. He left it in the car with my wife while he cuffed, searched me and put me in his car. My wife's gun was not secured until after the other four officers showed up and removed my wife from the car. They arrived after I was cuffed, disarmed and searched. More than enough time for the gun he was supposed to be securing to be used effectively against him and a clean get away made by BGs. The other thing was that he searched me, my car, my wife and her purse without consent or probable cause unless by having a concealed weapons permit you forfeit your right against unreasonable search and seizure. I do not see how this could be a felony stop by any stretch. This guy had the little mans complex in spades and he was panicked when he saw the gun. I know what fear is. That is what made the poor trigger control all the scarier. After he had me in the car he had a real hard time working the mag release and could not figure out how to lock the slide back. At one point he almost shot himself in the chest, his thumb on the trigger grasping the grip with his other fingers as he tried to push the slide back. That with the yelling, contrary orders, not securing my wife's gun, the hopping around all spell fear to me. All of his training was out the window, its not the first time I've seen fear fry cognitive abilities.
    I am still on the fence about what to do if anything. Primarily because I realize I am more ticked than I thought and I have long ago realized anything I do based on an emotional reaction is a bad one. To be honest all I keep seeing is that the guy pointed a gun at my wife. My wife is the best friend I have ever had. It does not do anyone any good for me to react based on that image. So I am going to keep reading and breathing. Again thanks
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    2,616
    Quote Originally Posted by gimpy View Post
    I think I would get my license plate light fixed before I do any more night driving.
    That is a given. I did it on the spot, keep basic repair / replacement stuff in the car. What sucks is that the folks we took out to dinner was my mechanic and his wife after he finished doing my brakes. Not that I'd expect him to notice, I didn't, inattention & buzzard luck

    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    AND get a holster or something for the wife.
    My wife has a several carry purses. FYI, most women do not carry on belt holsters. Due to breasts most shoulder holsters are not a viable option for many women. As I stated she had moved from the purse to assure a three year old did not get the gun. We, think a child's safety takes precedence over everything. We are weird like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    As a lawyer who has defended and prosecuted a lot of civil rights cases, I do not see any money coming out of this adventure.
    I take that as an insult. Money was not, is not, never will be any part of this. Nothing in my post implied we are one of those low life litigious opportunist slime balls who sue over split milk or coffee. That support ambulance chasing dirt bags, not to imply you are anything like that. But you know who I am talking about. The purpose of a complaint would be to A. Correct the behaviour. B. Protect ourselves from any further harassment
    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    Although I am not that well informed on your state's concealed weapons law, for most states concealed means that the weapon will not be seen from ordinary view. If the pistol was seen by the cop without having to do a search, it certainly is arguable that it was not concealed.
    My lawyer is well versed in Washington law. By giving him a retainer I have bet my freedom that he is the best lawyers anywhere. My opinion is based on his trial record. Washington is an open carry state except in municipalities that have specific prohibitions against open carry.
    The gun was concealed from Ordinary View. It could not be seen by anyone walking by or driving by. Only someone with their face in the drivers side window could see it. I posted the law. As I said I will rely on my lawyers interpretation of that law. Which is that to have a gun in a car a person with a concealed weapons permit must meet one of three criteria stated in the law
    1) The pistol is on the licensee's person,
    2) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there,
    3) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
    If 1 and 2 were both required than 2 would not be stated as it would be redundant.
    Per a call to the State Patrol, having your gun below window level out of casual view by those walking or driving next to you is properly concealed in your car while you are in it i.e. between the console & seat, on or in the console or in a door pocket. Not on the dash or visor.
    To clarify our scenario, the gun was in my wife's coat pocket. She was covered up in a car blanket napping during our two hour commute home, after a fourteen hour work day The gun dropped out of her pocket under the blanket while she was napping or when she sat up. When she sat up the blanket moved and exposed a part of the gun's grip and the Tru Glo sights which is what I think caught the officers attention

    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    For your wife's benefit, I am not convinced that you want to keep stirring this.
    Keep stirring? Want to explain yourself here? How what when did I begin to "stir" anything. How does being a sheep benefit my wife? How does her accepting having a loaded gun shoved in her face and being treated like a criminal benefit her or anyone? She has just started to carry. This weekend she has said if this is the way she can expect to be treated because she carries she is done. She works long hours in oncology which means she gets to work in the dark and goes home in the dark. As with most hospitals not in the best part of town. Want to explain the benefit of her opting to not being treated like a criminal and not carry a weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    After all, if your wife's pistol had been concealed, nothing like this would have ever happened anyway.
    WRONG If the officer knew the law none of this would have happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    That is why we have "concealed" weapons laws is to keep people, including cops, from getting all of joint for nothing.
    WRONG AGAIN We have unconstitutional concealed weapons laws simply because ignorant pansy fear driven legislators lawyers and citizens can not grasp a few simple words "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Emphasis added in case you are unfamiliar with the source of that quote is from a document called the "Bill Of Rights" please note to para phrase one gentleman's succinct sig. it "IT IS NOT, The Bill Of Permits, The Bill Of Permission, The Bill Of Licenses, The Bill Of Registration it is the BILL OF RIGHTS
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    2,616
    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    I think that all of you should go back and read the original scenario as posted line for line.

    Nowhere did I read that the officer pointed his gun at any of the occupants of the vehicle.

    I read that the officer drew his firearm with his finger on the trigger and then started screaming "Hands On The Dash - now your hands on the steering wheel!"
    I do not see a muzzle direction mentioned there. Do you?
    So where do you guys get the officer sticking a gun in somebodys face?
    Correct let me clarify. He pointed the gun at the window at me & my wife. While yelling contradictory orders hands on the steering wheel, get out of the car, don't move etc. BTW my hands were on the steering wheel always are in a traffic stop
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array bzdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Seattle(ish), WA
    Posts
    749
    LongRider, don't take this wrong, but I think you are in a bit of a gray area regarding the legality of the 'carry' of the firearm in question.

    While I understand you checked with a lawer, my guess is that there are a number of folks that would consider 'out of plain view' as 'not possible to view from the outside of the vehicle', which obviously wasn't the case here. You even admitted that it wasn't where it was intended to be.

    If you think about it, after the other officers showed up, they sorted it out and let you go. It is possible they could have charged you, but let you off because they understood you made a simple mistake.

    I understand it was unpleasant but you might consider they possibly gave you a break too.

    -john

  12. #71
    Member Array chiboxer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    midwest
    Posts
    397
    Hmmm....I am a police officer. To the person that said I have a moderately dangerous job, consider in one night (tonight) I pointed my gun at no fewer than 4 separate bad guys in 4 separate incidents (all of whom were armed by the way). Where do people that have never done my job get off by saying they think they know what they would do. Guess what? Until you have ever had a surge of adrenaline and realize that you may not be going home that night as planned, don't tell me my job is moderately dangerous. If I walked up to a car and saw an exposed firearm, damn right my gun is coming out. Yes, I will order you out of your vehicle. No, I don't want to hear what you have to say, I'm too busy focusing on staying alive. Once you are out of the vehicle and your weapon secured we can talk. Granted in WI we have no CCW. But even if we did a visible gun equals my fiance possibly getting a knock on the door telling her I'm dead.
    I'll be reasonably polite as I tell you to exit your vehicle with your hands in the air, but no way in hell am I letting you stay in that vehicle with an exposed firearm present. I really don't care if your feelings are hurt while I do my job and try not to get killed. The simple truth of the matter is that there are several ways to be sure the police will point a gun at you at a traffic stop. 1) jumping out of the car as you are first stopped 2) having a firearm in your lap as I approach the vehicle. I've been an officer for about 10 years and I am also a firearms instructor. We teach our people if you see a gun yours should be out and you should be issuing commands. Maybe it's different in a CCW state but I rather doubt it. I'm sorry but I believe the fault here lies with the permit holder who allowed his weapon to be exposed. Honestly what did he really expect the police to do?
    Si vis pacem, parabellum

  13. #72
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    783
    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    I am still on the fence about what to do if anything.
    You HAVE done something.

    You've laid out what happened, from your point of view, on this internet forum.

    You might as well go ahead and contact the head of that agency, or its IA section, and commit your grievance to paper, with your signature.

    Or consult an attorney and file a lawsuit.

    Either would be more effective in correcting the problem.

  14. #73
    Member Array Bonesnofoa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    201
    I gotta say again that i am very glad nobody was harmed. I know that if i experienced this it would really shake me up.

  15. #74
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,355
    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    ... One point everyone seemed to have missed was he did not secure the gun. He left it in the car with my wife while he cuffed, searched me and put me in his car. My wife's gun was not secured until after the other four officers showed up and removed my wife from the car...

    I didnít. In fact, itís the biggest problem I see with the whole situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I'd echo Rockys' post... but only to add that you should make a complaint. But only because is bosses need review what happened- if it went down as you say it did.. wow, bad tactics from the start. He's going to get himself killed. Plus, he needs to keep the little man syndrome in check.

    I understand LongRider being upset over this, I would be too. However, threads like this bother me. If people want to play like the big boys, they need to play like the big boys all the time. Little mistakes can be costly, and everyone was lucky they just got their precious feelings hurt and not worse.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array NY27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    2,382
    Quote Originally Posted by chiboxer View Post
    Hmmm....I am a police officer. To the person that said I have a moderately dangerous job, consider in one night (tonight) I pointed my gun at no fewer than 4 separate bad guys in 4 separate incidents (all of whom were armed by the way). Where do people that have never done my job get off by saying they think they know what they would do. Guess what? Until you have ever had a surge of adrenaline and realize that you may not be going home that night as planned, don't tell me my job is moderately dangerous. If I walked up to a car and saw an exposed firearm, damn right my gun is coming out. Yes, I will order you out of your vehicle. No, I don't want to hear what you have to say, I'm too busy focusing on staying alive. Once you are out of the vehicle and your weapon secured we can talk. Granted in WI we have no CCW. But even if we did a visible gun equals my fiance possibly getting a knock on the door telling her I'm dead.
    I'll be reasonably polite as I tell you to exit your vehicle with your hands in the air, but no way in hell am I letting you stay in that vehicle with an exposed firearm present. I really don't care if your feelings are hurt while I do my job and try not to get killed. The simple truth of the matter is that there are several ways to be sure the police will point a gun at you at a traffic stop. 1) jumping out of the car as you are first stopped 2) having a firearm in your lap as I approach the vehicle. I've been an officer for about 10 years and I am also a firearms instructor. We teach our people if you see a gun yours should be out and you should be issuing commands. Maybe it's different in a CCW state but I rather doubt it. I'm sorry but I believe the fault here lies with the permit holder who allowed his weapon to be exposed. Honestly what did he really expect the police to do?

    That "moderately dangerous job" statement bothered me too. Was my job moderately dangerous when I worked in Sing Sing and had to fight my way through a large group of inmates to get to a Sgt that was getting his head kicked in? 100 + inmates vs 10 Correction Officers, not fun.

    Was my job moderately dangerous when I was nearly stabbed by an inmate that started a mini riot in the keep lock yard?

    Was my job moderately dangerous when I worked for the NYPD and was shot at from the roof of a housing project?

    I could go on forever, as I'm sure many LEOs on this site could.

    And too many Officers paid the ultimate sacrafice for doing a "moderately dangerous" job.

    Please think before you type, blueyedvl.
    Police Defensive Tactics, Firearms, Carbine Rifle and Taser Instructor
    Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member
    It is better to have your gun and not need it, than to need it and not have it!
    You cannot choose the conditions for a gunfight, so train in all conditions!

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •