LEO saw the gun - Page 8

LEO saw the gun

This is a discussion on LEO saw the gun within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by SIXTO You and your wife made a minor error, Granted all of what you said except what minor error?...

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Thread: LEO saw the gun

  1. #106
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    You and your wife made a minor error,
    Granted all of what you said except what minor error?
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family


  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Granted all of what you said except what minor error?
    Not keeping her pistol safely secured.

    I know, I know, WA law says you/she did nothing illegal.... but legal only matters in a court room. You learned that night that it does matter on the street. Errors make a huge difference on the street.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  3. #108
    Distinguished Member Array BIG E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    You said badge numbers...

    I dont know why people always ask for badge numbers... it means nothing except for on TV.
    That's funny! I guess I got caught up in the TV world again.

    I haven't ever had any direct dealings with LEOS (that's a good thing).

    I just assumed... and assumption is what again???

    What about shoe size?
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

    -- Theodore Roosevelt --

  4. #109
    Senior Member Array bzdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    John, Read the law and my posts about the "expert interpretation or call call WSP. Your interpretation is as incorrect as the officer's.
    I understand that is your perspective and that of your lawyer. I have read the sections and like I said, I don't think it is that clear. Sure, he is a lawyer, but somehow I suspect the other side could produce lawyers that disagree.

    Lets look at this another way. Lets agree for argument sake that no laws have been broken. Who's to say she couldn't get her permit pulled for brandishing? Do you really want to open that can of worms?

    Look, I'm not against you here. You said you wanted input. I assume that means all input, not just what you want to hear.

    My only point is that there is usually more than one way to look at things. It seems like you are intent to see it one particular way.

    Sure the officer could have handled things better. But he *didn't* shoot you, you didn't get charged with anything (even if you are cleared, getting charged is going to be a big PITA).

    Legal or not, had the firearm been secured and out of sight, your evening probably would have gone much more smoothly.

    -john

  5. #110
    Senior Member Array blueyedevil's Avatar
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    Easy way to find out for sure what the official legal position is. Send an E-mail to the state AG asking for clarification of that law, just don't tell him why you're asking.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyedevil View Post
    Easy way to find out for sure what the official legal position is. Send an E-mail to the state AG asking for clarification of that law, just don't tell him why you're asking.
    I think thats already been determined, and when you really think about it, it isnt even an issue.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great View Post
    However, you can also be right and have charges filed against you anyway, laws broken or not. The "let the judge sort it out" mentality can be very costly, even if you do finally exonerate yourself. I've seen and heard of cases where the officers on scene are unsure or incorrect on their understanding of the law, especially relating to firearms, and decide to file charges "just in case" to avoid letting an offender off the hook. Unfortunately, this tends to have massive and often irreversible consequences for the guy in question, and take way too long to settle.
    My apologies I should not have directed that to you. You are absolutely right in both of your posts. On another thread I talked about going through exactly what you are talking about about two years ago. Getting a DUI as a result of having my blood drawn, four hours after I'd stopped a 700 pound bike with my face on a guard rail.. Awaiting emergency surgery with a catheter up my johnson, oxygen tubes up my nose, and IV drugs in my arm. Was a mess, took two years to straighten out & cost a fortune. So yeah duhh we were lucky this time.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  8. #113
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    [QUOTE=Herknav;517705]
    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Thanks for posting your story.


    I'm not laughing at you, but this sentence made the entire story...



    Question 1--Do you normally carry in Condition 3 (no round in the chamber and a full mag)? If not, where did he put the round from the chamber?

    Question 2--If "leprechaun cop" left your mags on the car roof, where did he put your gun?

    These are minutae questions, but I'm picturing the cop giving you back your gun with one in the chamber.

    Hope all goes well.
    Dunno if I responded to this one. Gimme a week or two and I'll get to seeing the funny part. Nope always carry with one in the pipe. It is one of the reasons I like the XD safe to carry locked and loaded, just grab and shoot, with no manual safeties to think about. Think I said this in another post. The guy almost blew a hole in his chest, we both have XD.45 compacts he did not seem to be grasp the concept of a grip safety at one point he had the gun barrel pointed at his sternum, thumb on the trigger with his other fingers on the grip trying to work the slide. Swear to god my mother is a hooker if I'm lying. He was few feet outside my window ( of his patrol car ) facing the front of the car. I tested it later with the gun unloaded and not pointed at any body parts. It appears that he would not have had pressure on the trigger as he tried to push the slide back and because and was holding the grip by the base missing the grip safety the slide would not engage or fire. In all of my life I have never ever seen anyone try to work a slide like that it take unnatural body contortions to do it. In my mind the guy let the fear take control. I don't know if that is something he can be trained out of.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  9. #114
    Senior Member Array JohnKelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Mac View Post
    Bingo!

    More officers have been killed SO FAR this year than were killed in ALL of last year.

    Personally, I think this particular LEO overreacted, and there's NO excuse for the finger on the trigger.

    BUT......Job #1 is ALWAYS to go home at the end of the shift, preferably with no more holes in your body than at the start of the shift.
    I read this time and again, but it would seem that Job #1 of any LEO is to uphold the law. An officer cannot trample people's rights in the interest of their own safety. If going home safely is given priority over upholding the law, then maybe a career change is in order.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKelly View Post
    I read this time and again, but it would seem that Job #1 of any LEO is to uphold the law. An officer cannot trample people's rights in the interest of their own safety. If going home safely is given priority over upholding the law, then maybe a career change is in order.
    Yeah...Umm OK.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #116
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKelly View Post
    I read this time and again, but it would seem that Job #1 of any LEO is to uphold the law. An officer cannot trample people's rights in the interest of their own safety. If going home safely is given priority over upholding the law, then maybe a career change is in order.
    With respect to my statement, the same could be said about any career.

    Does getting YOUR job done 100% correctly supercede YOUR survival?

    What about EMS personnel? They stage at a distance and wait for US to pronounce the scene "safe" before coming in to possibly save lives. Why? Because a dead paramedic can't save anyone else.

    ....and neither can a dead police officer uphold the law.

  12. #117
    New Member Array JusticeHunter's Avatar
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    That is what a cop filled with fear does....
    The fact that he placed his finger on the trigger put you at risk of being shot.
    I would contact your States Attoney Generals office to file a complaint. And check with his department to see if they have an IAD officer. Also try to contact the local press. Also your wife may be suffering from post tramadic stress. I 'd get a lawyer, a counselor and slap the department with a law-suite so fast that cop would be jumping into the unemployment line...

  13. #118
    Senior Member Array JohnKelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Mac View Post
    With respect to my statement, the same could be said about any career.

    Does getting YOUR job done 100% correctly supercede YOUR survival?

    What about EMS personnel? They stage at a distance and wait for US to pronounce the scene "safe" before coming in to possibly save lives. Why? Because a dead paramedic can't save anyone else.

    ....and neither can a dead police officer uphold the law.
    My job doesn't even approach the importance of law enforcement or EMS, so I won't attempt to make a comparison there. There are certain jobs (armed forces for example), where mission does indeed supercede survival. Otherwise, soldiers would never head into battle. Naturally, every effort is made to reduce the threat while keeping the primary objective achievable.

    There are inherent risks with EMS - contact with bodily fluids, communicable diseases, etc. Since these are inherent to the job, it would be absurd for EMS personnel to refuse to work on a patient to avoid getting blood on themselves. If someone was absolutely intent on avoiding blood and body fluids, then maybe EMS is not the right line of work.

    Back to LEO's. The primary objective is (and should always be) to uphold the law. The law includes local and state laws - and the Constitution including the Bill of Rights. I think most everyone agrees that the original poster's rights were violated and that the LEO acted way out of line. The gun was laying on the seat, and he freaked and took several actions that put himself and the citizens in jeopardy, in fact escalating the situation. Aside from the moment where he pointed a loaded pistol at his own chest, did the officer takes steps to protect his own safety? Well, yes I suppose. But in doing so he violated the citizens rights, and likely departmental policy.

    There are no other jobs where a person can violate another's rights up to and including incarceration and deadly force while operating under the law (or color of the law). So many comparisons will fall short.

    I'll pose the following questions:

    As an LEO does your safety supercede a citizens rights?

    As an LEO is it permissible to threaten the use of deadly force (this includes pointing a weapon at them) at a citizen when there is no active threat against the LEO or witnessed criminal activity?

    Do you believe doing the above creates friction between citizens of the community and the police force who protect it, fostering an "us vs. them" mentality? If so, is this acceptable?

  14. #119
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    Quote from OP:
    "The officer starts asking if I know why I was being pulled over sees the gun and freaks out. Starts hopping around......."


    Having not witnessed this all I can do is speculate a bit. The officer has a right to protect himself and use appropriate caution, and in this case he should have, though it seems to me he may be guilty of some over-reacting. As gun owners we can do our part too. We are responsible for the security of our weapon and knowing where it is at all times. Diligently practicing this would have prevented the officer from suddenly being alarmed and the subsequent trouble that followed.
    Last edited by ppkheat; November 9th, 2007 at 08:31 AM. Reason: spelling
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  15. #120
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    I read about five pages before skipping to the end, and I have to put in my .02.
    Sergeant Mac is absolutely correct on this one. The finger should not have been on the trigger and he may have been a little overzealous, but to call him a criminal is just plain wrong. None of the rest of you was there, and you have one side of the event. I would definately like to get the officer's side in this before I judge him a criminal. Last I heard, being overzealous is hardly a crime, neither is survival. It has been a long time, but I was a cop once, and I would do what I had to do to go home in the morning. Please think this through before you judge. Rant off, thanks for listening.

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