NRA - Senate Passes NICS Improvement Act, House Concurs (merged) - Page 2

NRA - Senate Passes NICS Improvement Act, House Concurs (merged)

This is a discussion on NRA - Senate Passes NICS Improvement Act, House Concurs (merged) within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; BluesStringer - c&p'ed your letter into OE and sent it "High" priority. If the legislation were to actually be handled properly (due process and effective, ...

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Thread: NRA - Senate Passes NICS Improvement Act, House Concurs (merged)

  1. #16
    Ex Member Array spy1's Avatar
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    BluesStringer - c&p'ed your letter into OE and sent it "High" priority.

    If the legislation were to actually be handled properly (due process and effective, timely, free recourse), I think it would be okay.

    My gut tells me that (given the writers/sponsors and track record of the Democrats) - it won't be. It'll be abused and under-funded on the parts we need the most. Pete


  2. #17
    Ex Member Array spy1's Avatar
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    Of course, if you haven't read this yet:

    http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactShe...=221&issue=018 (and please also read the links therein), then perhaps you ought to hold off on that letter.

    Or at least think about it first. Pete

  3. #18
    Member Array BluesStringer's Avatar
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    spy, I had already read that NRA release before writing or sending the letter to President Bush. Like most proponents though, they skirt the pertinent issues and refrain from quoting the text of the law that debunks the so-called "Myths." My objections to the bill are based entirely on the text as it appears in the bill, and not, as the NRA and other proponents would have you believe, based on hyperbole, alarmist rants by bloggers and like-minded internet forum participants, and certainly isn't relieved by knowing that the bill was widely supported in Congress. Most of those critters will tell you that they have never even read the bill, so it's their support for it that is based in myths.

    I've been at this for most of the weekend here and on a couple of other forums, and I'm pretty burnt out right about now. But as I reviewed the NRA release just a moment ago, I was answering their assertions in my mind, or at least several of them, and my answers are based on nothing but my analysis of the words within the bill. I gotta work tomorrow, but I'm off on Christmas and have no family in this part of the world, so I'll have some time to respond to some of the "myths" if anyone is interested in that. If not, that's cool, it is kind of a heavy topic to deal with on Christmas day.

    Blues
    "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington

  4. #19
    Member Array Lochinver's Avatar
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    I can understand getting burnt out on the subject. I've been debating this with other friends over the weekend as well.

    We (gun owners and enthusiasts) have been loosing ground for generations. Each and every time we lose this ground to what could be thought of as "reasonable" limitations on our right as laid out in the constitution.

    By "reasonable" I mean that a very vast majority of us agree that felons should not be allowed to freely obtain firearms.

    But look at what some states classify as a felony these days. You can drive a car, 5-15 mph over the speed limit, determined by conditions, construction zones, school zones etc, some localities/states could be within their powers to charge a person with a felony.

    It's not a violent crime to be heavy on the pedal, but a conviction would remove your rights established by the 2nd amendment.

    My frustration is that we have now a poorly written law that is to broad and gives to much power to an ever growing and already empowered department of the government (BATF E). One could find themselves punished for being ordered to get help/judged to get help and the most ironical at all, legitimately seeking to get help

    We give and give and give. Friends, they will "take" everything that we give concessions on.

    Where is our line to be? What point can be crossed where we say, NO MORE?

    I think that's a decision that we, as individuals, need to consider for ourselves.
    "I no longer list firearms I own as a signature. Why give them another list to use when they come to get them?"

  5. #20
    BAC
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    Well, it passed. I truly hope that nobody ever needs to "regain" their "diminished" rights, and then realize why this bill's opponents fought so damn hard against it.




    -B

  6. #21
    Member Array Bonesnofoa's Avatar
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    I am against any sort of gun regulation, registration. People have the right to defend themselves and their property with anything they wish. Full auto weapons included. Then again i try to think better of people, as reasonable and responsible adults.

    But we do have gun control, and its not going to go away soon. So it behoves us to improve the program. I actually read the bill and i like it.

    +1 Dang .45

  7. #22
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    NRA does some good things and some bad things. The good things tend to be small impact and the bad things tend to be large impact. NRA gun control and anti 2A actions 1934, 1938, 1968, 1989, 1994, and 2007/2008 ? Any others I am missing ?

    Yes I am a NRA member along with GOA member, SAF member, RKBA member on the national level.

    NRA arm chair want to be warriors need to resign except for Ted Nugent who has always been against this bill - I think he called it Janet Reno's Dream or something like that.

    Where is the NRA employee poster on this issue ?

  8. #23
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    DOGOFWAR01

    Hey yesterday San Fransico Handgun Ban gone YEAH!!!!! Thank you NRA!!


    Okay so whats the Issue again?

    Gun Bill Not Anti-Veteran
    Larry Scott | October 02, 2007
    There is no such thing as the “Veterans Disarmament Act.” There is no pending legislation that would take firearms away from veterans. There is no pending legislation that would prevent a person with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), veteran or not, from purchasing a firearm or ammo.

    But, there is a huge campaign of misinformation and scare tactics being forwarded by a small gun owners group who view themselves to be in competition with the National Rifle Association (NRA).

    Let’s use some common sense instead of nonsense. If veterans were to lose the right to own firearms, you’d have a lot of unemployed cops. If those who have PTSD were to lose that right, there’d be even more unemployed cops and other first responders, as well. The arguments about a “Veterans Disarmament Act” are, quite simply, ridiculous and illogical.

    The piece of legislation is question is H.R. 2640, the NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007. H.R. 2640 was carefully-crafted by the NRA and Members of Congress to protect the rights of gun owners, especially those who may have mental health issues such as PTSD.

    Alert: Tell your public officials how you feel about this legislation.

    The NICS is the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, the database that contains the names of those not allowed to buy firearms and ammo. There are nine specific groups of persons who are included in the database.

    Included is anyone "has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution." "Any mental institution" would, obviously, include a VA hospital mental ward. And, the government's definition of a "mental defective" is: “A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. The term shall include a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case.”

    The confusion over H.R. 2640 and veterans, especially veterans with PTSD, began in 2000 when the VA gave the names of between 83,000 and 89,000 veterans to the NICS database. The names were of veterans who had been committed to VA psychiatric wards or who had been adjudicated as a “mental defective.” This was required of all government agencies.

    Some thought that any veteran with a mental health issue ended up on the NICS list. That is an absurd assumption. If a veteran tries to quit smoking and goes to VA smoking cessation classes, they are in a mental health program because nicotine is considered an addictive substance. The same applies for those seeking treatment for alcohol or drug abuse. And, we know, these veterans did not end up in the NICS database.

    Neither current law nor H.R. 2640 would put any person, including veterans, who have sought psychiatric treatment or voluntarily checked themselves into a psychiatric unit on the NICS list. This includes those with PTSD, those seeking treatment for alcohol or drug abuse and those who have voluntarily sought help and been admitted for observation, sometimes termed a “voluntary commitment.”

    So, why all the noise about H.R. 2640? Some feel the small gun owners group is just looking for members. Others feel they have some kind of beef with the NRA. Whatever the reason, the misinformation and scare tactics should be considered for exactly what they are.

    The NRA, in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings that killed over 30 students, realized that current firearms legislation had some real problems. People who should be in the NICS database, like the Virginia Tech shooter, were left out. And, just as important, the NRA knew that some people who shouldn’t be in the database had been included and there was no way for them to get their names of the NICS list. Also, some believe there is wiggle-room in the current regulations that can allow government agencies to “interpret” them incorrectly. The NRA set out to solve those problems, and they did.

    The NRA fully supports H.R. 2640. According to the NRA: “Some pro-gun groups have claimed that H.R. 2640 would ‘prohibit’ thousands of people from owning guns. This is not true…In fact, H.R. 2640 would allow some people now unfairly prohibited from owning guns to have their rights restored, and to have their names removed from the instant check system.”

    H.R. 2640 would require states to provide quarterly information to the NICS database. This information would have to include those who no longer fall into one of the nine categories of “no buy” persons. There would be penalties for states that do not comply. And, the protections, especially for those with mental health issues, assure that a “medical finding of disability” would not put someone in the NICS database. That would include veterans with a diagnosis of PTSD. Here are the protections as stated in H.R. 2640:

    (1) IN GENERAL- No department or agency of the Federal Government may provide to the Attorney General any record of an adjudication or determination related to the mental health of a person, or any commitment of a person to a mental institution if--

    (A) the adjudication, determination, or commitment, respectively, has been set aside or expunged, or the person has otherwise been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring;

    (B) the person has been found by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that was the basis of the adjudication, determination, or commitment, respectively, or has otherwise been found to be rehabilitated through any procedure available under law; or

    (C) the adjudication, determination, or commitment, respectively, is based solely on a medical finding of disability, without a finding that the person is a danger to himself or to others or that the person lacks the mental capacity to manage his own affairs.

    Please note again that a person cannot be put on the NICS list solely for a "medical finding of disability,” and that would include PTSD.

    Also, H.R. 2640 will provide a means for a person to take their name off the NICS list if they should not be on it, something they cannot do at this time. That provision reads:

    (A) PROGRAM FOR RELIEF FROM DISABILITIES- Each department or agency of the United States that makes any adjudication or determination related to the mental health of a person or imposes any commitment to a mental institution, as described in subsection (d)(4) and (g)(4) of section 922 of title 18, United States Code, shall establish a program that permits such a person to apply for relief from the disabilities imposed by such subsections. Relief and judicial review shall be available according to the standards prescribed in section 925(c) of title 18, United States Code.

    The bottom line for veterans concerned about H.R. 2640 is to just use some common sense. Read the legislation. You may not agree with it. But, if you’re a veteran or you have been diagnosed with PTSD, don’t worry, they aren’t coming for your firearms. The NRA put it correctly when they said, “H.R. 2640 is NOT gun control legislation.” It IS... legislation designed to end inequities in the current laws that have unfairly prevented many from purchasing firearms and ammo.


    PS this came from Military.com
    Last edited by Rob99VMI04; January 10th, 2008 at 02:58 PM.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  9. #24
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    The Nra + Brady + Guncontrol - HR-2640


  10. #25
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    PS this came from Military.com
    Not to poo on the article but Military.com is hardly representative of the military. Otherwise every soldier would have Dragonskin and an HK 416. Just keep it in perspective.


    -B

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    Not to poo on the article but Military.com is hardly representative of the military. Otherwise every soldier would have Dragonskin and an HK 416. Just keep it in perspective.


    -B
    Yeah I know my point was no this came from the Military but a big very read website that tends to stay out of this side of politics and associate more with issues like why every guy should have dragonskin, however, I disagree with you on the HK 416
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOGOFWAR01 View Post
    First and second links are the same website. The last link requires a login.

    CLICK HERE for another view of this legislation
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    People who should be in the NICS database, like the Virginia Tech shooter, were left out
    Because VA Tech mental health guy (who Cho saw) didn't do his job...and the court did not file the correct paperwork. So we have to pay the price of THEIR mistakes.

    The parents are not without fault, either.

    The bottom line for veterans concerned about H.R. 2640 is to just use some common sense. Read the legislation. You may not agree with it. But, if you’re a veteran or you have been diagnosed with PTSD, don’t worry, they aren’t coming for your firearms
    yet
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array sui-juris's Avatar
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    I believe its columnist Vin Suprynowicz who always says the NRA is the the U.S's largest gun control lobby. A tiger don't change its stripes..

  15. #30
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Yeah I know my point was no this came from the Military but a big very read website that tends to stay out of this side of politics and associate more with issues like why every guy should have dragonskin, however, I disagree with you on the HK 416
    Military.com was obsessed with Dragonskin, and posted several articles defending it but leaving out some pretty vital information (like how well its laminating material stayed together in prolonged exposure to heat, how diesel fuel disintegrated the stuff glue-like material, how well the scales protected against odd-angle shots, etc.). Similarly, they've had a <expletive> for the 416 ever since they found out special operations had limited numbers of them.

    I understand what it's for, and as a general information site it's great. The problem is it suffers from the same journalists everyone bashes everywhere else; we just don't like to think that, since they do have a connection with the military, who many (most, maybe) of us deeply respect.

    Anyway, sui-juris called it right on this one. Every small step forward the NRA fights for, it pushes equally hard to go a few steps back.


    -B

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