Lack of respect for the 2A: CCW on Air Lines

Lack of respect for the 2A: CCW on Air Lines

This is a discussion on Lack of respect for the 2A: CCW on Air Lines within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I just want to get peoples personal opinions on this issue. Ron Paul made a fantastic statement that I agree with 100%. He said that ...

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Thread: Lack of respect for the 2A: CCW on Air Lines

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
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    Lack of respect for the 2A: CCW on Air Lines

    I just want to get peoples personal opinions on this issue. Ron Paul made a fantastic statement that I agree with 100%. He said that because of the governments lack of respect for the 2nd Amendment was the reason 9-11 happened. Basically the FAA stuck its nose in the buisness of private airlines and citizens rsponsibility of CCing on airplanes and said they cant do it. If people were allowed to CC on the airliners 9-11 would have been something like this...



    Thoughts?


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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Exactly so. The unspeakable unintended consequences of abused policies have just such ramifications.

    Of course, if it comes down to it, I'd hate to see what a few dozen holes through an airliner at 550mph and 40K ft would do to the airworthiness of that ship. Hm.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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    I have no doubt that is correct. At this point, we can only hope that more people start to see it that way.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

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    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Oh boy...I hesitate to throw my 2 cents...but here it goes:

    Hogwash.

    Bringing guns into a hollow tube with no place to run is an accident waiting to happen. Oh, and ADs and NDs do happen...even with LEOs. Throw in the looney toone...the guy that is itching to go down in flames (it happen 30 years ago with a disgruntle employee...killing 100+ passengers). Ever been trained to fight in a tube, aiming at a target with 100+ passengers in the way? Lastly, ever thought if you shot the place up, that you won the battle, but the plane died (lots of electronics on todays aircraft).

    My last parting thought...how does the CCWer know who the bad guy/gal is...what, they have to have a beard and cry allah? I can see it now, just as the guy fixing his flat and a guy drives up to help...you can scream CCL CCL. Oh, one more thing...there are domestic terrorists...what is to keep them from bringing weapons on the aircraft?

    A whole slew of Monday morning quarterbacks that love to use 9-11 as some what if. Regardless, there are armed pilots now and air marshalls trained to fight in a tube.

    Rick

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    Hogwash.
    There's no disputing that gunfire on a jet plane at 40K ft is dangerous. There's no disputing that it's not your average environs, given the risks. There is also no disputing that the flipside if disarmament is that only criminals have weapons, which is the primary point of the image.

    The implication is, of course, that CHL gunfire could have stopped 9/11. It's likely that gunfire from the unwashed (untrained) would have resulted in the dropping of that airliner to the ground. Had that occurred outside of Manhattan, the result would have been more like the Pennsylvania cornfield crash, avoiding the deaths of ~1500 people in a building. Who's to say. The probability of one being armed would likely be higher than at, say, a university campus on the day of a mass murder. But there it is.

    It's hard to say that the cornfield crash was a bad thing, given the alternative. Same with the other planes, to about the same degree, if one or both had been defended ... even if that defense caused them to plummet to the ground. A good alternative, in the same way.

    Oh, one more thing...there are domestic terrorists...what is to keep them from bringing weapons on the aircraft?
    Little. And there's the rub.

    Regardless, there are armed pilots now and air marshalls trained to fight in a tube.
    Good for them, on the few planes they occupy. But not others. And not on trains, buses, subways, other "public" conveyances. Fine, for businessmen on key routes. Irrelevant for the masses.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
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    While I agree, somewhat, with Bandit383, with proper training as a requirement and frangible ammo, taking down an airliner is greatly minimized. Other rules should also come into play, no drinking alcohol during any flight your carrying on, etc. I've said it before, the 2nd Amendment, like all other rights, is not unlimited.

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    Member Array mslaughtertx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    Regardless, there are armed pilots now and air marshalls trained to fight in a tube.

    Rick
    There are very few trained pilots and marshals, due to the fact the cost of training is totally out of their pocket with most airlines (pilots)

    Though there is a chance of the domestic terrorist bringing a weapon on a plane, if we require a license to carry on the plane then it would not be a big of a chance.

    I believe that before someone can carry a firearm period they should have to have true tactical application training with that firearm.

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    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Good for them, on the few planes they occupy. But not others. And not on trains, buses, subways, other "public" conveyances. Fine, for businessmen on key routes. Irrelevant for the masses.
    Many more than you think...regardless, the trains, buses, subways can be stopped and are on a predetermined path with help all around. The plane does not have those options.

    Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by mslaughtertx View Post
    I believe that before someone can carry a firearm period they should have to have true tactical application training with that firearm.
    Are you saying that everybody CCW, whether on a plane or not, should have tactical training...if so, you just wiped out 95% of CCW.

    Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by mslaughtertx View Post
    There are very few trained pilots and marshals, due to the fact the cost of training is totally out of their pocket with most airlines (pilots)
    This is not a true statement...what is out of pocket is food/housing (government rate) and time (airlines do not give you time off to attend). Weapons, bullets...lots of them, and instruction is covered by Uncle Sam.

    Rick

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    Just a few things to say...

    If a pilot happens to have a gun, he/she WILL NOT step out and try to eliminate the threat. They will lock the cab, and fly the plane. They have one purpose and one purpose only and that is to get the plane to its destination.

    I hope no one here kids themselves by thinking that an armed pilot is there to help them if someone tries to take over. The plane may get to the airport with a load of carcasses. because like it or not, it is a target rich environment. Pilots or NOT trained to fight in the tube, they are trained to maintain the cockpit.

    As many air marshals as there are, having one on your flight is akin to winning the lottery. Most of them are dedicated to international flights,and there just aren't a whole lot to go around.

    Aircraft have several redundant systems. Although its possible that random pistol fire could bring one down, the odds that it wont are in our favor. If anyone has ever seen some of our fighter aircraft in the gulf land with numerous holes ,rips, tears and gashes in them and wondered how in the heck they could still land, you might understand a little better that a large jet isn't going to be hurt that badly by pistol fire.

    Also, any concealed weapons holder ought to be educated enough to know not to draw his/her weapon unless a visible threat has been demonstrated. By that, I mean, a weapon and the declared intent to use it.

    As for me,I'll take my chances with the fact that some people may be armed...at least you have a small chance of survival....and any is better than none.

    At lets not forget real life. Real life proves that cowards and terrorists wont try anything unless they think that they can achieve their goal.

    If you were a terrorist,which plane would you choose? One that was gun free or one that had a few dozen armed civilians ?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Senior Member Array Natureboypkr's Avatar
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    That picture is louder than words lol
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    Member Array Tenring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I'd hate to see what a few dozen holes through an airliner at 550mph and 40K ft would do to the airworthiness of that ship.
    Most likely, not much - unless bullets hit some critical hydraulics or electrics. Even then, there are probably sufficient backup systems to ultimately fly the aircraft - as long as the aircrew is not incapacitated and they maintain control of the disposition of the aircraft, and control is not gained by the terrorists.

    Holes through the fuselage or windows might cause loss of cabin pressure which can be solved by taking the plane to a lower altitude - rapidly, if necessary. The loss of total pressure from even several small holes would likely not be rapid and might be controlled by the aircraft pressurization systems - which are quite hardy on airliners.

    Structural failure resulting in aircraft destruction (caused by rapid depressurization) would most likely be caused by an internal explosion, which would cause rapid loss of airworthiness and control. (Remember Richard Reid, the Shoe Bomber? That would have done it...) Catastrophic destruction is not a likely occurance from pistol bullets fired from inside. The holes are too small and the exit wounds not significant enough to rapidly change external airflow or destroy the vehicle structure.

    Mostly, the hazards from a few dozen bullets would be to the passengers and crew and the somewhat unlikely chance a critical system is hit and destroyed/disabled which renders the aircraft permanently uncontrollable.

    The best defense is for all the pilots (maybe some others of the crew as well) to be trained and armed in addition to the occaisional Air Marshal (who might by chance be on board). Naturally, the TSA has been dragging it's feet on the former - despite the fact they have had over 6 years to perform this relatively simple training and equipping task. Little doubt this ongoing sorry state of affairs is due to their anti-gun bias, bureaucratic apathy and know-it-all attitude.
    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that . . . it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. . . ." Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Justice John Cartwright (June 5, 1824)

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    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    If a pilot happens to have a gun, he/she WILL NOT step out and try to eliminate the threat. They will lock the cab, and fly the plane. They have one purpose and one purpose only and that is to get the plane to its destination.
    True that...the cab is already locked.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns
    I hope no one here kids themselves by thinking that an armed pilot is there to help them if someone tries to take over. The plane may get to the airport with a load of carcasses. because like it or not, it is a target rich environment. Pilots or NOT trained to fight in the tube, they are trained to maintain the cockpit.
    Not entirely true...and will not elaborate. But agree that the pilot is there to get the aircraft safely to the ground. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns
    As many air marshals as there are, having one on your flight is akin to winning the lottery. Most of them are dedicated to international flights,and there just aren't a whole lot to go around.
    I do not agree with this as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns
    Aircraft have several redundant systems. Although its possible that random pistol fire could bring one down, the odds that it wont are in our favor. If anyone has ever seen some of our fighter aircraft in the gulf land with numerous holes ,rips, tears and gashes in them and wondered how in the heck they could still land, you might understand a little better that a large jet isn't going to be hurt that badly by pistol fire.
    Disagree again...fighter aircraft are constructed to take hits and keep on ticking...airliners are not. Punching little holes into the skin will do nothing...hitting flyby wires or circuit breaker panels will do much.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns
    Also, any concealed weapons holder ought to be educated enough to know not to draw his/her weapon unless a visible threat has been demonstrated. By that, I mean, a weapon and the declared intent to use it.
    Lots of cowboys out there that want to save the day...even when a flight attendant gets into a beef with a unruly passenger

    Rick
    Last edited by JD; January 13th, 2008 at 01:10 PM. Reason: Removed PHP tags

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    The low life that took over the planes on 9-11 could only be stopped by armed citizens. There were too many for any one sky marshal to stop.
    In the minds of the low lifes, those planes were flying missiles the moment the wheels were retracted.

    I also have more faith in my fellow CCW, the planes probably still would have been lost, but the twin towers and the Pentagon would not have been damaged.

    As far as profiling (having a beard etc.) If a fellow decideds to start screaming Allah is good, I would not be opposed to having the great unwashed masses (me and a dozen other passengers) gently teaching our guest some in flight manners.

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    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GBS View Post
    The low life that took over the planes on 9-11 could only be stopped by armed citizens. There were too many for any one sky marshal to stop.

    1) Lots of warning signs before the hijacking. Regardless...the heros that took down the United Penn aircraft were not armed...but with their fists. I suspect that if such a scenario happened again, many more heros will stand up and fight...25 passengers to one terrorists.

    2) It is bombs you need to worry about...not knives and guns. The terrorists already played that card...and will wait another 10-15 years to play it again after everybody becomes complacent, again (just as we did in 911).

    3) You assume one sky marshal or even one LEO...I remember a flight where we had 15 LEOs covering the Presidential election security.

    Rick

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    Tenring is dead on. A few .50's won't hurt the airworthiness of a plane, and we all know how weak handgun rounds are. The vast majority of people's knowledge of "what would happen if" comes from Hollywood. There are a few, and only a few, things that can be hit by something as minuscule and weak as a bullet, let alone a bullet from a handgun, that can cause enough damage to take down a plane. Almost everything electrical is backed up, and hydraulics are sturdy as anything (with potential backups as well). The one thing a bullet could hit that I know of is at the front of the plane and is about the size of a computer (which it might well be; damned if I can remember though).

    Ron Paul's argument is NOT to arm everyone on board. It is for the government to end its restrictions and allow the airliners to determine how best to protect their passengers. A large part of his objection to the current state of affairs is that the government has deprived businesses and citizens their rights to self-defense but hasn't offered any sort of protection of their own to compensate for that loss.

    Just keepin' it real.


    -B

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