Voted no
Results so far:
Yes- 40%
No- 58%
Undecided-2% Out of 1126 votes
Voted no
Results so far:
Yes- 40%
No- 58%
Undecided-2% Out of 1126 votes
Double ditto, on that. Defensivecarry.com is a breath of fresh air, in that regard. Kudos to everyone, for keeping the trash at an absolute minimum.Quote:
Originally Posted by semlak0316
Voted NO. I do believe, however, that the seller should be held accountable should they knowingly sell to a felon.
I voted no.
Washington state has a form that can be filled out volentarily to CYA. See attached.
I foresee this as a potential next step: before you can sell it with a background check, prove that you acquired the firearm legally (not that you did, but that you must be able to prove it). How to do that? Forms filed with an FFL or the state as part of the background check that must be maintained in perpetuity for the next sale (de facto registration)?
Step following that: if you can't prove it, we confiscate it.
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the world isn't out to get you." :scruntiny:
Triple that!Quote:
Originally Posted by ccw9mm
Decorum, reasonableness, and manner in the arena of discussion and debate seems today to be a lost art form amongst adults in specific be they in person and especially so via the internet.
This forum and it's membership at large is IMHO excellent to that degree accommodating point and counterpoint type discussion.
IMHO DC.com is like a blast of Primatene Mist amongst the average otherwise generally restrictive in collective view GunFu related sites.
- Janq
I think that the ATF knocking on someones door asking about a gun is about as possible as winning the lottery. Asking at gun shops perhaps,but I have never known of ever heard of anyone being asked about guns that they bought or sold, from the ATF.Quote:
As to sale how does a person you've bought from pass on your info to the ATF or FBI or state/local PD when they come knocking asking about X, Y, or Z firearm they are federally registered as having purchased in XX year and has now been traced to a crime?
Do they say yeah well I sold that gun like 3 yrs. ago to this fella he seemed like a good guy at the time.
Federally registered? No such thing. The Fed don't require registrations of anything other than Class 3 stuff. Not yet anyways.
Some of the communist states require registration but most do not.
Since it is not illegal to sell a gun to another person, without paperwork, if you are a private citizen, it doesn't matter what the ATF "thinks". If they come knocking on my door asking about something I bought or sold, I"ll be as truthful as my memory dictates.
It is already LAW. You cannot knowingly sell to a convicted felon. If you do and get caught, you will be held accountable. If you have an FFL you will lose it, if it can be proved that you knew the party that you sold to was ineligible, you may be occupying the same bunk bed in the same cell.Quote:
I do believe, however, that the seller should be held accountable should they knowingly sell to a felon.
I can't say much other than that...You've already spelled it out the same way I would.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotGuns
Frankly some of the other responses on here scare me a bit. Perhaps we should require background checks before we sell our cars "private sale" eh? They're dangerous too right? I mean just this past year some ding dong somewhere plowed through a crowded marketplace. Whether I'm selling a soccer ball, car, pack of smokes, or a firearm makes no difference. The government should NOT under any circumstances be given the power to control that transaction. What they have is already too much.
So your suggesting that rather than fix our fouled up, bastardized court system, we should give up more of our lives to be controlled by some outside collective (otherwise known as the "government")?Quote:
Originally Posted by semlak0316
This occurs often and as I'd said in full not just the ATF (govt.) but indicated state and local police as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by HotGuns
As to not hearing of as much I guess than you never heard of or rather forgotten about the law enforcement research activities following the actions of initially sane and sensible seeming customers Cho Seung-Hui aka the 'VA Tech Shooter' or John Allen Muhammad aka 'The DC Sniper' (Federal agents end examination of Tacoma gun shop tied to sniper) or even most just this past October the case of Michele Cossey mother of the kid who with firearms she illegally straw purchased with intent to distribute to a minor, her son, who then subsequently planned out an attack using these firearms on his school (Prosecutor: Mom bought weapons for boy - CNN.com).
In all of the above cases and many more as per norm when firearms are involved law enforcement be it federal, state, or local will and do track down where firearms came from and how they came to be in the hands of the accused.
As such taking easy and simple and reasonable notes toward a seller upon a F2F interaction is a wise thing to do as one with persons strange and foreign to us do not know and have no real way to tel what might be in their hearts or minds toward intent or even their own ability to make sound judgment that as a result may end with po-po knocking on our own door asking who, why, when, where, what, and how much (?!).
Personally I'm not willing to risk my time, savings, good name amongst my community or even liberty for the sake of investing unwarranted trust to a person completely foreign and strange to me aside from he/she has greenbacks toward payment against purchase of a firearm.
Yes, there is and they do and not just for Class 3 stuff.Quote:
Federally registered? No such thing. The Fed don't require registrations of anything other than Class 3 stuff. Not yet anyways...
ATF Form 4473Quote:
In November 1993, the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Brady Act) was signed into law. The Brady Act requires Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) to request background checks on individuals attempting to receive a firearm. The permanent provisions of the Brady Act, which went into effect on November 30, 1998, required the United States Attorney General to establish the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) so that any FFL may contact for information to be supplied immediately as to whether the receipt of a firearm by a prospective transferee would violate Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), Section 922 (g) or (n) or state law.
The NICS Section, located at the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division in Clarksburg, West Virginia, provides full service to FFLs in 30 states and five U.S. territories, and the District of Columbia. Upon completion of the required Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Form 4473, FFLs contact the FBI NICS Section, via a toll-free telephone number or electronically through the NICS E-Check System via the Internet, to request a background check with the descriptive information provided on the ATF Form 4473. The NICS is customarily available 17 hours a day, 7 days a week, including holidays (except for Christmas).
Thirteen states have agencies acting on behalf of the NICS in a full Point-Of-Contact (POC) capacity. These POC states, which have agreed to implement and maintain their own Brady NICS Program, conduct firearm background checks for FFLs' transactions in their respective states by electronically accessing the NICS. Upon completion of the required ATF Form 4473, the FFLs conducting business in the POC states contact a designated state agency to initiate a NICS background check in lieu of contacting the NICS Section.
Additionally, eight states are currently sharing responsibility with the NICS Section by acting as partial POCs. Partial-POC states have agencies designated to conduct checks for handguns and/or handgun permits, while the NICS Section handles the processing of the states transactions for long gun purchases. The NICS Participation Map, as illustrated below, depicts each state's level of participation with the NICS.
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/images/n...tmap071906.jpg
CJIS Division Homepage
http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/images/4473-1.gif
Source - DRAFT ATF F 4473 (5300.9)
Form 4473 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BATF Gun Registration
- Janq
Well they did send a couple Feds. Went to the local gun shop, researched the 4473s and came to my house. Three of my friends were visited. When they want your info they go to the gun stores and go through the 4473s. Then they track you down. All it takes is the right crime to occur and you get to win the lottery. :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by HotGuns
Yep.
That is exactly what, how, and why it does happen. ^^
People hit the lottery every week.
- Janq
I'm all over the map on this issue. If it was a free, internet check so that a gun shop didn't get a cut from every private sale, them maybe.
I recall a topic a while back where some Mexican Police officers went to a Arizona gun show and bought some guns from a non-dealer. The prevailing concensus on the board was that arresting them was a good thing. Guns are generally prohibited in Mexico, and most of the ones being used AGAINST the police in the ongoing Mexico vs Cartel battles were purchased in border towns of the USA via private sales. A background check would certainly help prevent this. I work and travel Mexico frequently and I would like to see the police shut those cartels down forever.
Having said all that, I was denied a purchase once because I have the same name as a BG on the other side of the state. That is a aggravating and embarrasing situation. The local sheriff finally got it straightened out for me when I got my CCW, but it took him a month to do it . (He has my vote forever) Any big database system is subject to problems like that and I doubt that a 72 hour hold is going to work well for private sales.
Sadly, I think we will lose this fight as well. Eventually 'big brother' will force NICS check on ALL firearm transfers, even the ones you give to relatives.
We have too many in the firearms community that will agree that the government should check all sales. We already know where the anti's side. As a result, it will be forced on the rest of us, just as the 'kitchen table' dealers were run out o' Dodge.
Another thing that will happen, is this will lead to registration of all transactions as well. The thought that...... 'it'll be OK if government destroys the records after the instant check' , is at best, wishful thinking. The anti's will argue that we need to keep the records so that when a firearm is used in a crime, they will need to know who now owns it!....The only way for that to work is REGISTRATION!
....See how this works? Once the camel gets his nose under the tent you are screwed!
The best you do is get, or give a receipt when selling/buying a gun...even if you hand write it.
This is the same path the UK, Australia & Canada went down & looked what has happened there!
That's exactly right. It is history.Quote:
This is the same path the UK, Australia & Canada went down & looked what has happened there!
The real problem is that history is no longer taught in public schools, so we are doomed to go down the same path.
I don't like being considered guilty until proven innocent by some background check. I've never committed a single violent crime against anyone and I'd like to not be treated as if I have. And no, it's not okay even if it only takes a few seconds to complete, it's still treating me as if I'm guilty until proven innocent. This is supposed to be a free country, not a country of semi-minimalist restrictions so a bunch of idiots who base their arguments upon emotions can sleep better at night (read: anti-gun morons and FUDDS)Quote:
Originally Posted by matdicdad
I find this sort of ironic considering how much you supported background checks in stores in that other thread where we discussed the merits of the '68 gun control act/NRA. Why do you make the distinction?Quote:
Originally Posted by Miggy