Why NYC is NOT a Model for the Nation...

This is a discussion on Why NYC is NOT a Model for the Nation... within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I was thinking about the NYC gun situation, what with a former mayor running for Prez... NYC has done an admirable job of reducing crime, ...

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Thread: Why NYC is NOT a Model for the Nation...

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    Senior Member Array agentmel's Avatar
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    Why NYC is NOT a Model for the Nation...

    I was thinking about the NYC gun situation, what with a former mayor running for Prez... NYC has done an admirable job of reducing crime, but I do not believe their anti-citizens-with-guns success will export well. I did some quick research and here's what I found:

    - There is 1 NYPD officer for every 228 people who live or work in the city. There are 119 NYPD officers for EVERY SQUARE MILE of NYC land area!

    - In Detroit (just to pick a rough big city) there is one police officer for every 1300 in population at a density of just 1.06 officers per square mile.

    - Therefore, the PPM (Police Per square Mile) is 119 times higher in NYC than in Detroit. There are almost 3 times as many NYPD as there are cabs in NYC. Detroit would need more than 460,000 officers to match that.

    I'm not saying that it would easy with that many police in such a small land area, but it has to help. Draw your own conclusions, I just thought it was interesting.

    Mel
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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    I've talked to a few NYPD Police. There is a lot more ARMED people in the city of NY then just NYPD. Not trying to go against what your saying just trying to tell you that ratio of armed people to citizens is higher.
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    Member Array 500Mag's Avatar
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    Former Phila. Mayor Street cut the police force while in office and the crime rate rose. Just one of my factors, but likely related.
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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    Senior Member Array agentmel's Avatar
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    Oh, I'm sure there are more armed people, I was just focusing on police presence...

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    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    There's a lot of reasons for NYC's big turn-around from the massive crime haven it used to be. In addition to hiring a bunch of police officers, the Mayor instituted a couple new policies. One was in reference to the "Broken Window Theory." That theory states that, essentially, when you start enforcing the small things, then the bigger crimes drop for a variety of reasons. For instance: NYC started enforcing building codes, vandalism and littering violations. Broken windows had to be replaced of the building would be seized and/or condemned. The subway cars were scrubbed clean and repainted every time some jerk put his "art" on one. The streets became cleaner because people were getting stiff fines. All this adds up to a better attitude about where you live (some call it pride??) and the evironment. Notice how you never see or hear about 'clean' slums? I'm just touching on it, though.

    Theres a GREAT book called "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell that discusses this very issue at length. Its fascinating.
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    Senior Member Array Shadowsbane's Avatar
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    Wow, my wife was just talking about that book SixBravo. It is required reading for her degree. Bunch of very interesting stuff in there.
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    VIP Member Array glock27mark's Avatar
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    dont know about the stats, but yeah detroit is an interesting town.
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    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    I've talked to a few NYPD Police. There is a lot more ARMED people in the city of NY then just NYPD. Not trying to go against what your saying just trying to tell you that ratio of armed people to citizens is higher.
    How is that if NYC does not give out gun permits?
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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    Member Array airbornerangerboogie's Avatar
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    That just means there will be 119 police officers to take my statement or mark my chalk outline in the street. The old adage still applies; "when seconds count the police are just minutes away."
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    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsbane View Post
    Wow, my wife was just talking about that book SixBravo. It is required reading for her degree. Bunch of very interesting stuff in there.
    Haha No kidding? Yeah its required for mine as well. First book for the 100-Level classes, in fact.
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    Senior Member Array cmidkiff's Avatar
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    I don't believe for a second that gun control had any effect on crime in NYC, or anywhere else it's been tried. Gun control laws only affect law abiding citizens, and they aren't the people who are committing the crimes. Why this is difficult to understand is beyond me.

    NYC has a very heavy police presence. (I didn't know it was 1 officer per 228 people... wow!) That does indeed have an effect on crime. A large percentage of those officers get out of their cars and walk the neighborhoods. That also has a big effect. People get to know the cops, and don't figure LEO is the enemy. The 'broken windows' policy also has a large impact on crime. If kids can't get away with vandalism, they're unlikely to figure they can get away with a mugging!

    I gotta hand it to NYC. If someone would have told me in 1985 that their crime rate would be so much lower in 20 years, I'd have never believed it. I hope to see the great state of NY join the ranks of the 'shall issue' states one day, if for no other reason than it would drive their neighbors crazy :) Can you imagine Delaware's reaction to NY becoming 'shall issue'? Their heads would explode! :D
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    New Member Array SgtGold's Avatar
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    I've spent roughly 50% of my life living in NYC. There are more than 20 uniformed law enforcement agencies in NYC. NYPD is by far the largest, but there are far more LEO's carrying off duty than most people know. NYC is very bad for pistol permits. Almost no one can carry and there are @ 30,000 pistol permits out there for a city of 8 million. What most of the out of towners don't know is most of the violent crime is heavily localized in the worst neighborhoods. Yes, NYC is the kind of place that anything can happen anywhere, and if a tourist gets killed in Times Square you hear about it in every paper and on every local news show, but it's not as dangerous an some people make it out to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    How is that if NYC does not give out gun permits?
    Last edited by SgtGold; February 1st, 2008 at 12:33 PM.

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    Senior Member Array hudsonvalley's Avatar
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    Don't forget all those numbers crunchers that 'change' things. Violent Crimes are re-categorized as lesser, less violent crimes. When a Subway train is really, really late, they don't call it late, they CANCEL the train! A train that never existed can't be late. See how they do things in NY? Oh, I feel safer in NYC than in DC where I took the family over the summer. But we stayed in Alexandria.
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    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    I still wouldn't live there.
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    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtGold View Post
    I've spent roughly 50% of my life living in NYC. There are more than 20 uniformed law enforcement agencies in NYC. NYPD is by far the largest, but there are far more LEO's carrying off duty than most people know. NYC is very bad for pistol permits. Almost no one can carry and there are @ 30,000 pistol permits out there for a city of 8 million. What most of the out of towners don't know is most of the violent crime is heavily localized in the worst neighborhoods. Yes, NYC is the kind of place that anything can happen anywhere, and if a tourist gets killed in Times Square you hear about it in every paper and on every local news show, but it's not as dangerous an some people make it out to be.
    Seems what I am hearing is that NY serves as an example of how wonderful a police state would be. IE with all the police and off duty armed police citizens need not worry that they are prohibited from exercising their 2nd amendment right.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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