Any examples?

Any examples?

This is a discussion on Any examples? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Anti-self defense types continually argue that individuals with concealed handguns will cause even more mayhem and carnage if they respond to a killer such as ...

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Thread: Any examples?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Any examples?

    Anti-self defense types continually argue that individuals with concealed handguns will cause even more mayhem and carnage if they respond to a killer such as those at Virginia Tech and NIU.

    I can think of quite a number of occasions where armed private citizens made a difference in halting a killing spree, from the UT Tower in 1966, to Appalachian Law School in 2002, to the Colorado church last year. I can't think of any examples which support the antis' contention.

    The evidence would seem to be overwhelming, but then, I tend to consider things logically . . .
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters


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    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    There a link.....somewhere......with a whole bunch of documented instences that have occured in Isreal....(albit no U.S. stats) but makes a STRONG arguement for an armed,responsable socity. I'll find and post. My work computer is lock out of some of these cool websites.

    I think the FBI MIGHT have a incomplete listing as well.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    The only study I know of is by Dr. Lawrence W. Sherman, conducted while he was a Professor at the U. of Maryland.

    Here is the information to pull it up, I can't share it (republishing is verbotten!)

    21. Lawrence W. Sherman, Leslie Steele, Deborah Laufersweiler, Nancy Hoffer and
    Sherry A. Julian
    1989 "Stray Bullets and `Mushrooms': Random Shootings of Bystanders in Four
    Cities, 1977-88" Journal of Quantitative Criminology, Vol. 5, (4) 297-316.
    • Reprinted as Crime Control Report # 7, Washington, D.C.: Crime Control
    Institute.



    Edit:

    I'll add my $.02 too...

    I don't think there's going to be a positive result to this question (at least, not positive for pro-gunners). The police, who generally have more (in quantity) formal training in firearms use hit bystanders. In my State (WA) you don't need any training to carry. Which group (LE/CPL holders) shoots better under stress?
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post

    Edit:

    I'll add my $.02 too...

    I don't think there's going to be a positive result to this question (at least, not positive for pro-gunners). The police, who generally have more (in quantity) formal training in firearms use hit bystanders. In my State (WA) you don't need any training to carry. Which group (LE/CPL holders) shoots better under stress?

    Everybody is going to react differn't understress. Therefore, that question is hard to answer. I don't think you can bunch everybody in a group and make a general statement that one group of people shoot better then the other. I know people with carry permits that would have a hard time hitting a barn, I also have met some cops that fall into the same catagory.

    However, I will say this there are some police who carry a gun ONLY because they HAVE to.

    Civilians on the other hand carry a gun because they WANT to.

    Does this equat in ability. In some cases I would say yes. Because the person who wants to carry a gun has desire and hunger for getting better at using his tool.

    A person that is told he must well in some cases pride kicks in and says you can't tell me what to do. Hence the lack of practice etc.....

    So I don't know I know some very good Marksman on both side, however I have met a big majority that fall into the above dilemna.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Everybody is going to react differn't understress. Therefore, that question is hard to answer. I don't think you can bunch everybody in a group and make a general statement that one group of people shoot better then the other. I know people with carry permits that would have a hard time hitting a barn, I also have met some cops that fall into the same catagory.

    However, I will say this there are some police who carry a gun ONLY because they HAVE to.

    Civilians on the other hand carry a gun because they WANT to.

    Does this equat in ability. In some cases I would say yes. Because the person who wants to carry a gun has desire and hunger for getting better at using his tool.

    A person that is told he must well in some cases pride kicks in and says you can't tell me what to do. Hence the lack of practice etc.....

    So I don't know I know some very good Marksman on both side, however I have met a big majority that fall into the above dilemna.
    I agree that the answer to this question could go either way. That said, the only thing we can be relatively sure of, is that there are going to be innocent victims. So... the outcome of a study into this area may be a 'net' positive for our side, but will ultimately lend credibility to anti-gun arguments.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    From what I've found so far, there really aren't any examples of where an armed citizen did more harm than good in a situation where a mass killer was on a rampage. John Lott's Website has a great many references to indicate the same.

    For all of their rhetoric, the antis' nightmare scenario (bullets flying indiscriminately in all directions, innocent bystanders slaughtered) just doesn't happen. They paint pictures of things that could happen, but can't demonstrate that it ever has.

    On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of the exact opposite occurring: individuals taking personal responsibility to defend themselves and others.

    I've had the opportunity to visit with Ray Martinez, the Austin, Texas cop who took down Charlie Whitman on top of the UT Tower in 1966. He gives a lot of credit to the private citizens who took action to assist, one of whom went up the tower with him, others who kept up a steady fire to keep Whitman's head down, saving more lives.

    I know, I'm preaching to the choir here.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

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    Are you asking in general or the specific question of schools?

    We have a problem here. Massive loss of life will occur if a BG goes on a rampage so that helps the Antis' cause because they have a quantifiable result (dead bodies) that they can display. We don't have a time machine to go back in time and insert somebody in the event, stop the shooter and then compare in a sort of Before/After situation.

    However, you can use the example of the church in Colorado and the statistics provided by the states that quantify the behavior of the CCW holders as in crimes committed in general and then crimes committed involving firearms. You then can go on and compare against crime rates for regular folks and you may find yourself with lots of ammunition to counter any anti argument.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

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