New Orleans Begins GUN CONFISCATIONS of Legally Owned Civilian Weapons

This is a discussion on New Orleans Begins GUN CONFISCATIONS of Legally Owned Civilian Weapons within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; anybody notice none of this crap is happening in Mississippi or Alabama? AFS...

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Thread: New Orleans Begins GUN CONFISCATIONS of Legally Owned Civilian Weapons

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array AirForceShooter's Avatar
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    anybody notice none of this crap is happening in Mississippi or Alabama?

    AFS
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  3. #62
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    Thanks for a good read hank.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  4. #63
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    Thumbs down MILITARY police?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo
    ExSoldier,
    I agree that the over-militarization of civilian police can be a problem. However, that being said, I do believe that the average officer/agent on the street has every right to be as well armed as the criminals we face. I have personally taken full-auto weapons and carbines (to include at least 3 gov't issue M-16's...stolen, of course), so I don't feel "overarmed" in carrying a carbine or a subgun. However, I don't get out of the car every day with a carbine slung over my shoulder and I don't effect every arrest with a subgun stuck in the bad guy's face. It is completely dependent upon the situation. I'm not ready to go to the British style of "unarmed policing". I certainly don't consider an armed law abiding citizen to be a threat (indeed, I consider them to be comforting to have around), but the bad guns are armed also (oddly enough, they don't seem to respect the gun laws that prohibit them from using them).
    Gonzo
    Full Auto has a definite place in LE work. But it must be narrowly restricted for the safety of the public! I much fear that the spray and pray mentality has so infected the Boys in Blue that with 30rds on tap and gone in a matter of seconds, the average street cop will become Public Enemy #1.

    To preclude this possibility and yet offer the street cop excellent firepower, why not issue all street cops a lever action M94 Winchester carbine in either .357 magnum or even .30-30? This would make maximum use of caliber choice and marksmanship skills to benefit the public safety rather than endanger same.

    I think we can all agree that the infamous LA SHOOTOUT would have been ended with but a single properly placed head shot on each perp. That the police were ineffective in making that shot does not show an inequality of firepower. It reflects a lack of marksmanship skills. For exactly the same reasons should the shotgun be removed from general issue. Well, it does serve as a mighty deterrent, but if used, more innocents are likely to suffer than BG's!

    But I think the real meat of this topic is the area or zone of responsibilities that seem to be ever widening at the top. Militarization, I feel, refers to federalization and removing a local nexus of control. If cops are no longer held accountable to local citizenry, then they may feel unfettered to violate civil rights. Look at NO where it seems to be cops from OTHER states and other states national guards that are the zealots enforcing the MAYORS illegal mandate of gun confiscation. The mentality is: Hey I don't live here and I also disagree with the idea of civvies owning guns...so why not? I don't answer to them or their chain of command. THEY don't pay me....
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  5. #64
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    To preclude this possibility and yet offer the street cop excellent firepower, why not issue all street cops a lever action M94 Winchester carbine in either .357 magnum or even .30-30? This would make maximum use of caliber choice and marksmanship skills to benefit the public safety rather than endanger same. [/I]
    Unfortunately, a lever action limits the types of rounds you can use. A pistol round carbine really is not effective enough. The .30-30, however, is a pretty good choice. I actually think an effective patrol rifle is the new Remington pump action .308, but there is nothing wrong with a non-full auto capable AR in the hands of the average patrol officer.
    Gonzo
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  6. #65
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    latest NRA take

    for you NRA haters
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    September 12, 2005
    www.nraila.org

    Disaster Can't Destroy Gun Rights

    (Fairfax, VA) -- National Rifle Association leader Wayne LaPierre slammed New Orleans authorities Monday for seizing legal firearms from lawful residents.

    "What we've seen in Louisiana - the breakdown of law and order in the aftermath of disaster - is exactly the kind of situation where the Second Amendment was intended to allow citizens to protect themselves, " LaPierre said.

    "When law enforcement isn't available, Americans turn to the one right that protects all the others - the right to keep and bear arms," LaPierre said. "This attempt to repeal the Second Amendment should be condemned."

    The New York Times reported last Thursday that no civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to have guns, quoting the superintendent of police that "only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons."

    A Louisiana state statute allows the chief law enforcement officer to "regulate possession" of firearms during declared emergencies. "But regulate doesn't mean confiscate," said Chris W. Cox, the NRA's chief lobbyist.

    "Authorities are using that statute to do what the looters and criminals could not: disarm the law-abiding citizens of New Orleans trying to protect their homes and families," Cox said.

    "The NRA will not stand idly by while guns are confiscated from law-abiding people who're trying to defend themselves," he said.

    "We're exploring every legal option available to protect the rights of lawful people in New Orleans," Cox said, "and we're taking steps to overturn such laws in every state where they exist."

    "Local authorities in New Orleans are turning nature's assault on human life into man's assault on human rights," LaPierre said. "Four million NRA members intend to stop this unconstitutional power grab."

    --nra--
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  7. #66
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo
    Unfortunately, a lever action limits the types of rounds you can use. A pistol round carbine really is not effective enough. The .30-30, however, is a pretty good choice. I actually think an effective patrol rifle is the new Remington pump action .308, but there is nothing wrong with a non-full auto capable AR in the hands of the average patrol officer.
    Gonzo
    Okay what about the good old Savage 99 Lever Action .308? I'm just saying that number of rounds whether semi or full auto isn't necessarily a good thing when it might tend to preclude a decent application of marksmanship and well chosen shots. The gradual move to the hi-cap 9mm presaged this woeful situation. The number of effective torso hits on BGs keeps sinking because of both poor marksmanship and poor training to react to threat situations. The first thing I really learned as an army officer is that when TSHTF you will absolutely react to your training and often will not remember the intervening actions, only realizing you did it right because you're alive when the gunsmoke clears and the other guys .... well...they ain't!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #67
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Okay what about the good old Savage 99 Lever Action .308? I'm just saying that number of rounds whether semi or full auto isn't necessarily a good thing when it might tend to preclude a decent application of marksmanship and well chosen shots. The gradual move to the hi-cap 9mm presaged this woeful situation. The number of effective torso hits on BGs keeps sinking because of both poor marksmanship and poor training to react to threat situations. The first thing I really learned as an army officer is that when TSHTF you will absolutely react to your training and often will not remember the intervening actions, only realizing you did it right because you're alive when the gunsmoke clears and the other guys .... well...they ain't!

    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Okay what about the good old Savage 99 Lever Action .308? I'm just saying that number of rounds whether semi or full auto isn't necessarily a good thing when it might tend to preclude a decent application of marksmanship and well chosen shots.

    You still have the problem with the lever action tube magazine limiting your types of rounds (due to nose to primer contact). I don't think limiting the number of rounds is the right answer. I think BETTER TRAINING is the answer. Like I said before...the bad guys carry hi-capacity weapons, so I don't think we should be prevented from doing so any more than any other citizen should. After all, you could apply the same misguided argument to the average private citizen: "Citizens should not be allowed to own high-capacity firearms for self-defense because...and I quote...' that number of rounds whether semi or full auto isn't necessarily a good thing when it might tend to preclude a decent application of marksmanship and well chosen shots'". It does not make any sense when applied that way either. However, bad guys don't give a rat's ass where there rounds land when they miss. As LEO's, we must be reminded (and trained) about round accountability. I don't think, however, that means saying we must go out with lesser arms than the bad guys we face. It means less money needs to go to flashy designs on patrol cars, less money to designer badges for every single occasion, less money on redecorating the Chief's office, and MORE, MORE, MORE money for TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING! More stringent requirements for passing firearms qualifications. More realistic training.
    My humble (I can hear my wife laughing) opinion,
    Gonzo
    PS - I'm a military officer as well and a Gulf War vet. I know where you are coming from...I just don't agree 100%. But I certainly respect your opinion.
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Okay you've made your point....

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo
    After all, you could apply the same misguided argument to the average private citizen: "Citizens should not be allowed to own high-capacity firearms for self-defense because...and I quote...' that number of rounds whether semi or full auto isn't necessarily a good thing when it might tend to preclude a decent application of marksmanship and well chosen shots'". It does not make any sense when applied that way either. It means less money needs to go to flashy designs on patrol cars, less money to designer badges for every single occasion, less money on redecorating the Chief's office, and MORE, MORE, MORE money for TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING! More stringent requirements for passing firearms qualifications. More realistic training.
    My humble (I can hear my wife laughing) opinion,
    Gonzo
    PS - I'm a military officer as well and a Gulf War vet. I know where you are coming from...I just don't agree 100%. But I certainly respect your opinion.
    Okay GONZO: When you put it that way, you sold me. Point very well driven home! Excellent logic. The only thing I think I would advocate spending MORE $$$ on besides TRAINING is better... no make that EXCELLENT COMMO capabilities.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  10. #69
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    You still have the problem with the lever action tube magazine limiting your types of rounds (due to nose to primer contact).

    Not on the Savage model 99. There are two variants, one uses a detachable magazine and one uses a fixed mag in the rifle.There is no nose to primer contact. The Savage can use .308 spitzer bullets. It came in several calibers.

    Ive got the .308 and it the MOST accurate gun I've got... and it beats my .308 PSS,.300Sendero and my .50 BMG hands down.

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    Response from GOA

    Here's the response I got from the GOA to my email asking them what they were doing about this. I also wrote the NRA, Louisiana governor's office, Loisiana Attorney General and USDOJ public information office. No response yet from any of those:

    Good afternoon and thank you for your e-mail.

    The gun confiscation that is occurring in New Orleans is an outrage and the offending officials need to be held accountable.

    Right now as I write, we are looking for a sponsor for legislation that we have floated on Capitol Hill. The language is designed as an amendment to any supplemental appropriations bill in the appropriate place saying: provided , however, that no funds appropriated pursuant to any provision of law may be used (1) to involuntarily force any person out of that person’s home if the person is not in imminent danger, or (2) to disarm law-abiding citizens exercising their Second Amendment rights. So, call your Representative and ask him or her to sponsor this legislation. We are knocking on doors on the Hill but we welcome all the help we can get. So, if you get a positive response, call us with the information and we will take immediate action.

    After combing through Louisiana law, we cannot find any authority for gun confiscation from law-abiding citizens by state officials including the declaration of martial law necessitated by a natural disaster. This lawless disregard for state and federal law by state and federal officials acting on their behalf cannot be tolerated.

    Many people have suggested that GOA go to the courts to get an injunction against the offending officials but GOA does not have standing to bring suit in these instances. However, there is a directly affected Louisiana attorney who states he is bringing suit. We would certainly file an amicus brief in this case. We approve of court action and will certainly make the appropriate response when a person with standing does bring suit.

    Other than legislative and court action, the remaining avenue is information dissemination. The ABC video showing the unaffected law-abiding citizens being deprived of their means of protection will be posted on our website shortly. If you haven’t seen it, take a look and if you have, tell someone who hasn’t.

    We have been inundated with e-mail on this subject and we are thankful that there are so many people concerned. But, hopefully, you can see our position and action plan.

    1. Yes – it is an outrage
    2. Yes – we are attempting to do something about it.
    3. Yes – we are in front of the media on New Orleans doing radio interviews, issuing press releases and editorial opinions.
    4. Yes - we have legislation; looking for sponsor
    5. Yes -We support court action; we will file a brief; but lack standing to file suit
    6. Yes - Have put out e-mail alerts to inform members and others
    7. Yes – We think the confiscation of firearms from law-abiding citizens is illegal

    Thank for you for writing and I hope I have covered most of the bases for you.

    Robert E. Duggar
    Public Liaison
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  12. #71
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns
    Not on the Savage model 99. There are two variants, one uses a detachable magazine and one uses a fixed mag in the rifle.There is no nose to primer contact. The Savage can use .308 spitzer bullets. It came in several calibers.

    Excellent! I did not know that. Of course...now I need to go to the gun store...
    Gonzo
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Okay GONZO: When you put it that way, you sold me. Point very well driven home! Excellent logic. The only thing I think I would advocate spending MORE $$$ on besides TRAINING is better... no make that EXCELLENT COMMO capabilities.

    Unfortunately, part of our problem these days (again...just my opinion) is we coddle our officers. If they don't pass their quals, we provide "remedial" training and let them shoot it again...and again...and again...and again. After all, we don't want anyone to feel bad about themselves. Or, to sue the department. What a load of manure! You either pass and are permitted to carry a gun and keep your job, or you fail, and start looking for employment elsewhere. Hey, I don't want to see anybody lose their jobs, but either you meet the basic requirements or you don't. You wouldn't let a surgeon keep "practicing" surgery over and over and over again until he/she gets it right, would you? And yet, we do it with our cops. On range days (I'm a firearms instructor) I try to GIVE my guys extra ammo (.357Sig ain't cheap) to practice with on their own time. I have guys who won't take it! They won't take free ammo!!! Sadly, no matter how much training we offer, we still have a large percentage of folks who are not interested in doing any more than the bare minimum.
    Gonzo
    PS - Sorry, I got on my soapbox.
    PPS - Yes, commo is a SERIOUS issue. We can "talk" to a probe circling the planet Mars, but we can't talk amongst ourselves (emergency services)? Geeze, give me a break!
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  14. #73
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    Seeing as Savage 99 was mentioned - I'll just add re my own 99C - it is in .243 and not .308 but - has fixed box mag and I load with 105 spitzers - it is a superb rifle. That is just an FYI thrown in.


    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  15. #74
    JT
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    Here's another article on the subject...

    http://www.gopusa.com/news/2005/sept...eizuresp.shtml

    New Orleans Gun Seizures Allegedly 'Creating More Victims'
    By Jeff Johnson
    CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
    September 14, 2005

    (CNSNews.com) -- Few people objected when police began gathering firearms they found in abandoned New Orleans homes, to prevent them from falling into the hands of criminals. But one gun policy expert says confiscating guns from law abiding citizens who remain in the city is increasing the danger posed by criminals.

    New Orleans Police Superintendent P. Edwin Compass III explained Sept. 9 that the impending mandatory evacuation of the city was truly mandatory, this time, and that residents had to leave for their own safety.

    "Individuals are at risk of dying," Compass told The New York Times. "There's nothing more important than the preservation of human life."

    But many residents, whose neighborhoods were undamaged by either Hurricane Katrina or the resulting flooding, do not want to leave. Most fear looters will damage or destroy anything they cannot steal and some of those citizens have armed themselves.

    New Orleans police and law enforcement officers from hundreds of other agencies assisting them found hundreds of firearms left behind by residents fleeing the hurricane who probably expected to return to their homes, and their guns, within a few days. The search for the abandoned guns began after criminals fired on police and U.S. Army and Coast Guard rescue helicopters.

    City officials then announced that they would, at some point, begin forcibly removing residents who refused to leave the city. Compass explained that the gun confiscation order had also been expanded to include weapons possessed by law abiding citizens, even those with valid, state-issued concealed weapons permits.

    "No one will be able to be armed," Compass told the Washington Post. "Guns will be taken. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns."

    John Lott, resident scholar with the American Enterprise Institute and the author of "More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws," told Cybercast News Service that he is "very disappointed" with the decision by New Orleans leaders.

    "The question is, 'Are the police there able to protect people?' And I think he would have to be one of the first to acknowledge that the police simply aren't capable of protecting the people who are there," Lott said. "One thing that this hurricane has shown is that people are ultimately forced to protect themselves. It would be nice if the police were available to go and protect everybody, but they're not."

    Police were forced, Lott said, to choose between rescuing hurricane survivors and enforcing the law. The necessary choice, he believes, left unarmed residents defenseless.

    "They just weren't able to do both and many people were falling victim to criminals," Lott argued, "You had roving gangs going around and it's not really clear what else you would have advised someone to do other than having a gun for protection."

    Lott said he is also disappointed that police appear to be engaging in "selective" gun confiscation. After Compass expanded the original order, the New York Times reported that it, "apparently does not apply to the hundreds of security guards whom businesses and some wealthy individuals have hired to protect their property."

    Police officials would not respond to reporters' questions about allowing the guards, who are private citizens with firearms training similar to concealed weapons permit holders, to keep their guns.

    "They seem selective in ways that are a little bit hard to fathom in terms of who they let have a gun," Lott said, adding that many wealthy individuals were also apparently being allowed to keep their firearms. "Lots of people who live in the poorest areas there probably needed the most protection."

    Lott said the police are "running a real risk" by taking away the only protection some New Orleans residents have from criminals.

    "There are obviously bad people there who have guns. But, to take away the guns from the law abiding citizens - so that they can't protect themselves from those same people that the police are worried about - I don't think makes much sense," Lott concluded. "You're going to end up creating more victims and easier targets for criminals to attack."

    Second Amendment advocates blast New Orleans policy

    A number of pro-gun groups blasted the gun confiscations as "unconstitutional," "illegal" and, even, "the sin of arrogance."

    Alan Gottlieb, of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA), is demanding a federal investigation of the actions.

    "I also want to know under just what authority New Orleans officials are confiscating lawfully-owned firearms from law-abiding citizens," Gottlieb said in a press statement. "Where does it say that the state and federal Constitutions can be nullified, even briefly, simply because of a hurricane? In every other natural disaster this country has ever faced, people retain their civil rights, including the right of self-defense, but New Orleans and Louisiana state officials have added the sin of arrogance to incompetence and negligence for which they must be held accountable when this is over."

    Erich Pratt, communications director for Gun Owners of America, explained his disagreement with the policy by recounting the story of New Orleans resident Charlie Hackett.

    "[H]e and his neighbor, John Carolan, stood guard over their homes to ward off looters who, rummaging through the neighborhoods, were smashing windows and ransacking stores," Pratt wrote.

    "It was pandemonium for a couple of nights," Pratt recalled from Hackett's description of the incident. "We just felt that when they got done with the stores, they'd come to the homes," Hackett told Pratt.

    According to Pratt, armed looters did target Carolan's house, demanding his generator, but departed when Carolan showed them that he was armed.

    Pratt recalled the Los Angeles riots of 1992, when scores of businesses were burned by protesters angry over the acquittal of police officers accused of beating Rodney King.

    "But not everybody in Los Angeles suffered. In some of the hot spots, Korean merchants were able to successfully protect their stores with semi-automatic firearms," Pratt said. "In areas where armed citizens banded together for self-protection, their businesses were spared while others (which were left unprotected) burned to the ground."

    Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the National Rifle Association (NRA), said the civil disorder in New Orleans is "exactly the kind of situation where the Second Amendment was intended to allow citizens to protect themselves.

    "When law enforcement isn't available, Americans turn to the one right that protects all the others -- the right to keep and bear arms," LaPierre said in a media release. "This attempt to repeal the Second Amendment should be condemned."

    Louisiana law allows officials to "regulate possession" of firearms during a declared emergency, but the NRA's chief lobbyist, Chris Cox, argued that "regulation" and "confiscation" were not the same in the eyes of the law.

    "Authorities are using that statute to do what the looters and criminals could not," Cox added, which is to "disarm the law-abiding citizens of New Orleans trying to protect their homes and families."

    All three organizations said they were pursuing legal options to stop the confiscations and force the city to return firearms to any citizen who had not violated the law when their gun was taken.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  16. #75
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    All the above does is offer proof that the city officials really are a bunch of idiots.

    Instead of capturing the bad guys the cops are confiscating legally owned weapons because of an illegal decree by incompetent city officials.

    Great...

    this is EXACTLY the scenario playing out that all of the good little sheeple said would never happen in America.

    Its apparent that all the government has to do is declare an emergency and they can pretty well do whatever they damn well please...whether it is illegal or not...

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