Do Away With Guns - Page 2

Do Away With Guns

This is a discussion on Do Away With Guns within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Janq "The rationale for citizen gun-ownership lies in the right to overthrow one's government." - David P. Baugh Wrong!!!1 The rationale is ...

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 38
  1. #16
    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    816
    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    "The rationale for citizen gun-ownership lies in the right to overthrow one's government." - David P. Baugh

    Wrong!!!1

    The rationale is toward a basic human right to defend ones self, his/or her children, family, home/residence, and means to survive.
    Jang, it is correct that "overthrowing" the government was not truly in the minds of the founding fathers, however, protecting themselves from a tyrannical government most definitely was. This, along with defense of life, was the main reason for the 2nd Amendment.


  2. #17
    88m
    88m is offline
    Member Array 88m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Western Colorado
    Posts
    146
    as to the writer of the article



    WOW! Dumber than Advertised!



    ok ok sue me. was watching animanacts with the kids last night but it's the 1st thing that came to mind.
    “The will to survive is not as important as the will to prevail... the answer to criminal aggression is retaliation.” Jeff Cooper

  3. #18
    Member Array MadDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Posts
    467
    Quote Originally Posted by SammyIamToday View Post
    Out of touch with reality is the nicest response I can give at this time.
    +1

    This guy said:
    "The safety of our citizens is far more important than their selfish claim that their Second Amendment rights would be violated." Well me might as well give up all of are amendment rights then.

    Well maybe we should start taking his rights away and watch him scream his head off. Like the people who do use a weapon for crime is going to turn thier weapon in to the police.

    Some Anti's will never understand the facts, Michael J. Doust is a prime example of someone who dosn't get how the world works.
    I believe in gun control...... Thats why I use TWO hands.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    With much respect Ron, I disagree...emphatically.

    Defense of life and more importantly life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness was primary, and still is. This was stated in the Declaration of Independence predating the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights addresses and attempts to prevent in the future the injustices committed against 'we the people' as very clearly itemized by Hancock in the DoI. In fact the BoR even goes so far as to borrow same words and phrases from the DoI in it's writing toward disallowed actions broadly and in specific.

    Further the U.S. Constitution in it's preamble states;

    "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

    Note the above is about and oriented toward us, people, representing the individual and we the people on the whole.
    The Framers established government as proposed and did exist (no comment toward how it exists today...thats a whole other thread subject) to support the ideas and ideals posited in that opening statement of purpose and establishment. It just doesn't get any simpler and more clear than that which had been stated.

    The Second Amendment itself states;
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    There is no statement about government muchless tyrannical government nor overthrowing of government.
    The statement is about the security of a free State and the right of the people to keep and bear what shall not be infringed. The militia being persons or people of a mindset toward defense of their State. State being not an actual state like say Maryland, Pennsylvania, or Massachusetts but that of our nation overall including the lands there in under ownership of the individual and the collective overall. Examples of such include our embassies which reside in and amongst foreign lands. Those buildings, properties, and the land they sit on are owned by and protected by we the people as per management by our government, of the United States of America and Americans.

    The Second Amendment does not give us right to overthrow government. It does not empower us to retain arms toward as much nor to defend ourselves subsequent to such actions. It's not even about government at all nor tyrannical government either.

    The primary focus and goal of the founding fathers and their intent toward the Declaration of Independence, the subsequent establishment of the U.S. Constitution, and later the Bill of Rights with it's multiple constitutional amendments was to overall and in specific support that first sentence, the preamble, of the Constitution; "...in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this...".

    The entirety of the Bill of Rights with all of it's amendments and not just the second supports and enables the preamble as a and the basic premise.
    All of the rest be it denial and protection against a tyrannical and thus criminal groups and government, or tyrannical and thus criminal singular individuals and persons are just one of multiple possible situations and scenarios that may and might apply and be applicable secondarily and within the basis of the primary which was then and still is today most importantly to all Americans and man kind at large the defense of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

    If only people, and persons, and groups, and 'States', and governments of past and present knew, understood, or had such capability.
    People such as the two I detailed in my prior post would not have suffered as they have and not be the victims that they are...and will continue to be.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    816
    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    With much respect Ron, I disagree...emphatically.

    Defense of life and more importantly life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness was primary, and still is. This was stated in the Declaration of Independence predating the Bill of Rights.

    One of the key words in that is "Liberty" or freedom from oppression. Let's look at what some of the Founding Fathers stated.

    "What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?" Thomas Jefferson

    "The militia, sir, is our ultimate safety. We can have no security without it....The great object is, that every man be armed. Congress, by the power of taxation, by that of raising an army, and by their control over the militia, have th sword in one hand, and the purse in the other. Shall we be safe without either?" Patrick Henry

    "Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the state governments with the people on their side would be able to repel the danger." James Madison

    There is more but I think you get the point. By the way, thanks for the great discussion.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Mid-Hudson Valley New York State
    Posts
    4,207
    The writer is off the wall, and has no sense of realty.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  7. #22
    Member Array johnisaly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    109
    My response ......
    Mr. Doust –
    I’ll make you a deal……you go out and collect the guns, knives, and other weapons from all the criminals, thugs, gang-bangers, rapists, robbers, car-jackers, terrorists, dope-dealers, serial killers & psychos. After doing so, all of us law abiding, honest, hard working, citizens will turn over our guns to you for destruction.

    You obviously live in a fantasy world. The world is not flat; Santa Claus is not real; and the moon is not made out of green cheese.
    John -
    "The story you are about to hear is true; the names have been changed to protect the innocent."

  8. #23
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    44,771
    Let's get this perfectly straight...

    Guns were NOT designed to kill, they were designed to defend.

    Electric chairs, gas chambers, and gallows WERE designed to kill...

    Stay armed...stay safe!
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array itschuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    728
    The delegates attending the Continental Congress based their defense of liberty as a natural right granted to all men on the ideas of John Locke. Locke believed that such rights were natural, reasonable rights. In a "state of nature," all men seek to protect their life, liberty, and property. But as the strong can use their power to deprive the weak of liberty, governments are instituted to protect the rights of all. But, if the government becomes too powerful and does not protect these rights, then the people have the obligation to remove that government (revolt) and replace it with a government that does respect and protect the rights of all.

    Thats a summary of why the 2a exsists. And why it says militia and individual. Its a check to keep federal govt. from evolving into a stalinist state.
    I really wish they did a better job in teaching history in school. If they did then such uneducated drivel as Micheal Doust spouts would be recognized for what it is, a load of horsepucky as my father would put it.
    Current collection: Too many according to the wife...

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array SubNine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Anchorage Alaska
    Posts
    1,969
    I am sorry but there is simply no way you can just make all the guns go away. There are far too many guns, even in countries where there is an outright ban on them, there are still guns. Our military and other military forces around the world use guns, and I can bet some of those guns make it onto the black market.
    USMC rule # 23 of gunfighting: Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

    I am the God fearing, gun toting, flag waving conservative you were warned about!

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    27,011
    The safety of our citizens is far more important than their selfish claim that their Second Amendment rights would be violated.
    I'm not a "gun advocate." But I do value my life and the lives of my loved ones, and I value the right to defend it far more highly than anything, including anyone's thought to take it from me.

    This ninny is right one one sense: the safety of myself and my loved ones is far more important than anyone's selfish claims. Damn right it is. That is exactly why I carry.

    Value of life is why the right to defense and the right to carry is upheld in the U.S. Not everywhere is life valued highly enough that people are acknowledged the right to defend it. That core value should be cherished, not blindly maligned as if it were a sickness, merely out of fear of the weaponry or simply because it tends to be a murderer's chosen means of attacking citizens.

    As mentioned, handguns are low-power weapons, designed for up close and personal encounters. They are, quite frankly, the only practicable defensive tool that can counter another firearm, which tends to be a murderer's choice of tools. The simple fact is that denial of this tool in the hands of upstanding citizens is to deny that life has value and to deny one's right to defend life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    "The rationale for citizen gun-ownership lies in the right to overthrow one's government." - David P. Baugh
    Janq is right, in that this guy is off his rocker. The rationale for any defensive tool is defense ... against all comers, foreign or domestic. It just so happens that if thuggery is officially sanctioned, then a few officials are going to be resisted. So be it. Rwanda and other places of recent heinous and inhuman outrages present stark examples to what head-in-sand thinking can lead to.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    2,964
    Here was one of the responses:

    FIREARMS REFRESHER COURSE


    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

    A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

    Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.

    If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?

    If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.

    Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

    If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

    Those who trade liberty for security have neither.

    The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved.

    What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

    The Second Ammendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.

    64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.

    Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.

    Know guns, Know peace, Know safety. No guns, No peace, No safety.

    You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

    9-1-1: Government sponsored Dial-A-Prayer.

    Assault is a behavior, not a device.

    Criminals love gun control; it makes their jobs safer.

    If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson.

    Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them.

    You have only the rights you are willing to fight for.

    Enforce the gun control laws we ALREADY have; don't make more.

    THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED WITH GUN CONTROL
    Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.

  13. #28
    Member
    Array GBS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Central California
    Posts
    468
    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Let's get this perfectly straight...

    Guns were NOT designed to kill, they were designed to defend.
    Except anything that does not get a vote...

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    The Second Amendment does not give us right to overthrow government. It does not empower us to retain arms toward as much nor to defend ourselves subsequent to such actions. It's not even about government at all nor tyrannical government either.
    Actually, I think the important thing about the 2A is that it does not say, "the right to keep and bear arms [in order to do X, Y, and Z] shall not be infringed." Yes, there is a mention of the security of a free State, but this is essentially seperable from the statement of the actual right (there is an amicus brief on Heller that explains the ins and outs of the Latin ablative case, if you are interested ).

    At its most basic, the Constitution assumes that government exists only by the consent of the governed. It was written by people who were very much aware of the general fear of a powerful central government, and its goal was to limit the authority of that central government.

    While it is not explicitly written anywhere that we have the right to overthrow that government, I think it is a very clear assumption by the founders that the ability to react to tyranny (in this context, a government that fails to abdicate havign lost the consent of the people) needed to be protected. Most of the authors of the Constitution have remarks to this effect in their provate papers and diaries from the Convention. It was very much on their minds.

    I think one can easily argue that the intention to "promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty" gives the people a right to reject tyranny, and I think the 2A was assumed to five the people the power to do so.

    All that said, I still think this interpretation of the 2A is a mere contingency plan, and in practice is significantly less important than the right to protect life and property. In essence, the people being armed is a subtle deterrent against government tyranny in the same way that the presence of CCW holders in public places is a subtle deterrent to armed loonies when choosing their place to go out in a blaze of glory.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

    SIG: P220R SS Elite SAO, P220R SAO, P220R Carry, P226R Navy, P226, P239/.40S&W, P2022/.40S&W; GSR 5", P6.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    One of the key words in that is "Liberty" or freedom from oppression. Let's look at what some of the Founding Fathers stated.

    "What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?" Thomas Jefferson

    "The militia, sir, is our ultimate safety. We can have no security without it....The great object is, that every man be armed. Congress, by the power of taxation, by that of raising an army, and by their control over the militia, have th sword in one hand, and the purse in the other. Shall we be safe without either?" Patrick Henry

    "Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the state governments with the people on their side would be able to repel the danger." James Madison

    There is more but I think you get the point. By the way, thanks for the great discussion.
    Ron,

    All of those quotes are statements of what is obviously toward discussion of oppression of government.
    There are probably hundreds of such quotes by those persons and other founders, as related specifically to government.

    Again though the second amendment does not state nor infer that it and the right to bear arms is specific to the over throw of government.

    Further the definition of liberty is the following;


    Main Entry:
    lib·er·ty Listen to the pronunciation of liberty
    Pronunciation:
    \ˈli-bər-tē\
    Function:
    noun
    Inflected Form(s):
    plural lib·er·ties
    Etymology:
    Middle English, from Anglo-French liberté, from Latin libertat-, libertas, from liber free — more at liberal
    Date: 14th century

    1: the quality or state of being free: a: the power to do as one pleases b: freedom from physical restraint c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e: the power of choice

    2 a: a right or immunity enjoyed by prescription or by grant : privilege b: permission especially to go freely within specified limits3: an action going beyond normal limits: as a: a breach of etiquette or propriety : familiarity b: risk, chance <took foolish liberties with his health> c: a violation of rules or a deviation from standard practice d: a distortion of fact 4: a short authorized absence from naval duty usually for less than 48 hours

    Source - liberty - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
    The definition of liberty has been the same for centuries and prior to the days of the founders and the writing of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. And the founders knew this. They knew what liberty means and it's definition, and with that that knowledge it was detailed as defined above in all three documents.
    Liberty from oppression is again inclusive and just one amongst many secondary effects of having liberty, being liberated, and thus as per definition of the word having "the quality or state of being free".

    You and I and others of America do not support the second amendment for reason of liberty from oppressive government.
    You and I and We The People of America support the second amendment, and the Bill of Rights in total, and the Constitution as per once more the story as told clearly and succinctly in the Preamble to; "...establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity...".

    The 2A is toward the support of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for us all. To which freedom from oppressive government is not a key item but just one amongst many inclusive conditions that result from the lack of freedom and with that recognition of the human right to bear Arms to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Great article: "Instead of outlawing guns, keep guns away from outlaws"
    By opalelement in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: July 16th, 2010, 09:51 AM
  2. Steven Crowders "GUNS, GUNS, GUNS"
    By TerriLi in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: May 6th, 2009, 03:43 PM
  3. Raising children with guns vs. toy guns...
    By Vegas in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: February 9th, 2007, 11:15 PM
  4. Guns and sons of guns
    By TonyW in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: June 9th, 2006, 10:32 AM

Search tags for this page

j. micheal doust knives

,

john schuiteman

,

john schuiteman alaska

Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors