Do Away With Guns - Page 3

Do Away With Guns

This is a discussion on Do Away With Guns within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; kazzaerexys, The 2A as stated in so many words is all inclusive. Oppression from government is but just one of very many reasons for a ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    kazzaerexys,

    The 2A as stated in so many words is all inclusive.

    Oppression from government is but just one of very many reasons for a person to bear arms.
    Feeding ones family via tools which also include borne Arms is yet another. And BTW 'Arms' by definition is not just firearms either. This includes pneumatic rifles (recall Lewis & Clark used one during their travels to hunt for food), bow & arrows, swords, knives, axes, clubs...etc ad infinitum.

    There are many multiples of use of Arms and to that the 'Militia' to make use of Arms, as they are specifically referred to in the 2A, toward "being necessary to the security of a free State". Security by definition is broad as well and not just toward oppressive government, even in those times and revolutionary war days. The founders in drafting the Constitution _and_ the Bill of Rights were not looking at just the day they were in singularly. They were thinking forward and
    broadly toward a life for themselves and their brothers and their families living in a society amongst a world that to that time was unimaginable and unheard of. There was no such thing at that time or prior to what they had proposed vis a vis the Constitution. They were thinking broad scale big picture all inclusive freedom. And that freedom included and still does include but is not primarily toward or as was proposed wrongly exclusive to overthrow of government if it be deemed oppressive by the people.

    If that were in fact the case then as the 2A would read differently and state in so many words; '...being necessary to the security from oppressive government'. But as it does not the framers smartly and wisely addressed this specific condition in a broad and all inclusive state as opposed to pigeon holing defense and ability to bear Arms toward primarily or worst even singularly against oppression by government.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Ron,

    All of those quotes are statements of what is obviously toward discussion of oppression of government.
    There are probably hundreds of such quotes by those persons and other founders, as related specifically to government.

    Again though the second amendment does not state nor infer that it and the right to bear arms is specific to the over throw of government.

    Jang, as I stated earlier, I do agree that overthrowing the government was never a consideration. But I guess we'll continue to disagree on the rest. Our founding fathers had many reasons for authoring the Bill Of Rights. The first, and foremost, was to protect those rights from an overly aggressive government. We must remain on constant watch for introduced laws that strip away those rights.

  3. #33
    BAC
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    So we can pull a Britain? No thanks.

    BBC News | UK | Handgun crime 'up' despite ban

    It's a shame you feel that people own guns because they're paranoid or afraid of their neighbors. It's also a shame you feel the need to write about a subject of which you have no knowledge. Here's some light reading (be open-minded; his views are a bit out there for most folks but he makes many valid points).

    Ethics from the Barrel of a Gun

    As for me, I've seen violence, and know very well that a grieving mother doesn't care whether or not her son was shot, stabbed, or beaten to death. I'm also more than aware that OC spray doesn't always work, that tazers and stun guns often fail, and that a person isn't always able to run, or able to physically fight. I won't take away their ability to protect themselves when other options just aren't available to them.


    Before firearms, martial skill was the only thing that protected someone from someone else.

    Civilian Gun Self-Defense Blog

    Have a good day sir, and I hope that the wolf never growls at your door, but if it does I also hope someone is there to help if you can't, or won't, help yourself.

    Sincerely,


    Brian
    One of these days folks will quit messing with formating so I don't have to grumble about spacing between paragraphs...


    -B

  4. #34
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    The 2A as stated in so many words is all inclusive [...] the framers smartly and wisely addressed this specific condition in a broad and all inclusive state as opposed to pigeon holing defense and ability to bear Arms toward primarily or worst even singularly against oppression by government.
    Janq, I am pretty sure we are saying the same thing here---freedom from tyranny is by no means the only reason for the 2A. The 2A's goal is to enshrine the right of the people to RKBA for all reasons---self defense, hunting to feed one's family, sport, professions at arms, militia for the common defense, security against tyranny, and anything else I haven't thought of here. Heck, maybe they wanted to make sure a gentleman was never caught short in a duel.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

    SIG: P220R SS Elite SAO, P220R SAO, P220R Carry, P226R Navy, P226, P239/.40S&W, P2022/.40S&W; GSR 5", P6.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed kazzaer, emphatically.

    You and we don't 'bear Arms' for the sole nor even primary purpose of over throwing government nor even to keep them in check (via fear of citizen insurrection).
    We bear arms outside of theory and political supposition for very many reasons individual and as a group at large. The Framers knew this then and knew it would continue to be the case now in the far off future...if their grand experiment gained traction and actually worked. Which thank goodness for us all today it did. :)

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
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    Just to clear things up, I didn't mean by earlier statements that we carry out of fear of the government today. I was just pointing out that one of the primary reasons for the 2nd Amendment was to protect a right from a possible tyrannical government. The other reasons were protection of life and to ensure the capability (at the time) of procuring food. All of these things were considered during the drafting of the Bill Of Rights.

  7. #37
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    I always said that Americans are reactive and not proactive. Well Americans are starting to react. No matter how much they might not like it, they are starting to realize that law abiding citizens that CCW on campus, in malls and everywhere else give some sort of answer to a question that does not have a true answer.

    We might not stop the bad guy with a bullet but we will let them know they are at the end of their trail when they are met with equal resistance.

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landor View Post
    ... starting to realize that law abiding citizens that CCW on campus, in malls and everywhere else give some sort of answer ...
    Taken to its logical conclusion, if every upstanding person were armed, trained, able & willing to use H2H and lethal weaponry in defense of themselves and others, the life expectancy of violent attacks would be short, indeed. It's hard to see how a thus "hardened" citizenry can be a bad thing.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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