You can have my guns when you pry them from my cold, dead hands...or not.

This is a discussion on You can have my guns when you pry them from my cold, dead hands...or not. within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Looking at the Katrina nightmare and some of the other threads, it seems a popular statement is 'They can have my guns when they pry ...

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Thread: You can have my guns when you pry them from my cold, dead hands...or not.

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    You can have my guns when you pry them from my cold, dead hands...or not.

    Looking at the Katrina nightmare and some of the other threads, it seems a popular statement is 'They can have my guns when they pry them from my cold, dead hands'. While I certainly feel strongly about the issue, but I don't know if I feel that strongly about it.

    In New Orleans, what they did was certainly unconstitutional, and while I would be very opposed to relinquishing any of my weapons, I am not sure how I could resist or even if I would. I imagine the officers were not open to a discussion on ConLaw, and I have had on occasion the unfortunate circumstance where an on site LEO and me have had disagreements about what the law clearly said. In that circumstance, I went along with the LEO, with Yes, sir's and No, sirs, and we sorted it out later, and it worked out just fine. This situation doesn't seem to be one where you can agree to disagree and work it out later, because the fact of the matter is you either disarm yourself in a dangerous situation, or you keep your arms and put yourself in a more dangerous situation where you are now effectively resisting LE while they are in the commission of their duties.

    For instance, in TX, even if it is blatantly an unlawful search ,seizure, or arrest, you cannot resist the search and seizure, as that would be illegal. The only time you could resist is if the officer used unprovoked force that was greater than necessary to carry out that search, seizure or arrest.

    So, I guess my point/question is, there really isn't anything I can think of to stop somebody from unlawfully confiscating any or all of my weapons. I understand after the N.O. fiasco, most LE probably recieved more training, but it's worrisome to know that even in hindsight, I don't have any better answers about what to do, than what they were forced to do when it happened.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    Tough spot to be in! I don't want to shoot a cop, and I don't want to GET shot...not much of a choice...settle it later with an attorney!

    Stay armed...stay safe!
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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    While I certainly feel strongly about the issue, but I don't know if I feel that strongly about it.
    When the time comes, you'll know what to do. Out in public, at the business end of several M-16's and a squad of gestapo officers, I guess I'd more than likely reluctantly give up my lawfully owned property. In my home, invaded, I'll likely become a statistic, and get hauled out in a plastic bag. One thing about that---I won't be the only one. Surely the media and the perpetraitors will make me out some sort of nut job, holed up with hostages or something. Sure they will have a field day with my military background too. But all in all, that won't matter then. Will it? Yes--I'm willing to die for what I believe.

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    Have well hidden back-up guns? This is a bad scene, any way you slice it. You can't offer armed resistance to the cops - you'll lose, and the "best case" is that you kill some poor Joe who is just trying to do his job (admittedly, he's in the wrong to follow those orders, but is it worth killing him over it?) On the other hand, there's no way I'd sit still in some flooded out no-man's-land completely devoid of arms...

    So - hypothetically of course - buy an AK and a Glock, seal them up really well, and hide them where they absolutely will not be found. When you are asked if you have weapons, say yes, turn over the ones you have on you/available at the time, try as hard as you can to get a receipt, and then wave at the nice officers as they continue on their merry way. Then, go dig up the goodies, and defend your life.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Opfor, yeah, that's about what I came up with, give up some sacrificial arms and hope they don't find the rest...it just goes against the grain.

    I didn't mean to come up with a worst case, hypothetical scenario. From what I understand, this is exactly what had happened in N.O.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    When the time comes, you'll know what to do. Out in public, at the business end of several M-16's and a squad of gestapo officers, I guess I'd more than likely reluctantly give up my lawfully owned property. In my home, invaded, I'll likely become a statistic, and get hauled out in a plastic bag. One thing about that---I won't be the only one. Surely the media and the perpetraitors will make me out some sort of nut job, holed up with hostages or something. Sure they will have a field day with my military background too. But all in all, that won't matter then. Will it? Yes--I'm willing to die for what I believe.
    I'm with ram rod I live in a all brick house,all interior walls are brick!! Without a signed warrant, they don't get in, till they break in. there will be no one trying to jump to the front of the line trying to come in! I will test some of there tacticool training! I need a gas mask!LOL
    It's my home if it's not to the letter of the current law, they will be the one's on the wrong side! It's my castle!!
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

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    Member Array foreveryoung001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Have well hidden back-up guns? This is a bad scene, any way you slice it. You can't offer armed resistance to the cops - you'll lose, and the "best case" is that you kill some poor Joe who is just trying to do his job (admittedly, he's in the wrong to follow those orders, but is it worth killing him over it?) On the other hand, there's no way I'd sit still in some flooded out no-man's-land completely devoid of arms...

    So - hypothetically of course - buy an AK and a Glock, seal them up really well, and hide them where they absolutely will not be found. When you are asked if you have weapons, say yes, turn over the ones you have on you/available at the time, try as hard as you can to get a receipt, and then wave at the nice officers as they continue on their merry way. Then, go dig up the goodies, and defend your life.
    That's what I was thinking as well... Although, as with Katrina, they did have plenty of warning that the storm was coming, and when you live below sea level I can only imagine that you must have some idea that your life/home might be in danger from flooding. I most likely would have left and taken my firearms with me, before the flood.

    I think of it like situational awareness but on a bigger scale.

    I'm not going to wake up one morning and have the National guard at my door demanding to search my home for weapons. There will be some political, social, or natural situation that would proceed such a move, and I just need to be aware of it, and not be home when they show up.
    When the messenger arrives and says 'Don't shoot the messenger,' it's a good idea to be prepared to shoot the messenger, just in case.

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    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Not wanting to hijack,but what other sit could you see this type of seizure taken place!
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

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    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Have well hidden back-up guns? This is a bad scene, any way you slice it. You can't offer armed resistance to the cops - you'll lose, and the "best case" is that you kill some poor Joe who is just trying to do his job (admittedly, he's in the wrong to follow those orders, but is it worth killing him over it?) On the other hand, there's no way I'd sit still in some flooded out no-man's-land completely devoid of arms...

    So - hypothetically of course - buy an AK and a Glock, seal them up really well, and hide them where they absolutely will not be found. When you are asked if you have weapons, say yes, turn over the ones you have on you/available at the time, try as hard as you can to get a receipt, and then wave at the nice officers as they continue on their merry way. Then, go dig up the goodies, and defend your life.
    I totally agree. So long as they donít bring dogs, hiding a pistol or two is easy.

    Think Iíll take your advice and hide a Glock and ammo. While Iím at it I might as well add a rifle to that stash.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdwolf View Post
    Not wanting to hijack,but what other sit could you see this type of seizure taken place!
    I'm not sure. Worst case scenario, Dem's win the whitehouse and pass a law banning guns. I don't think we'll see that in our life time, but who knows.
    Maybe a New York style terrorist attack.
    Peak oil.
    Riots.
    Civil uprising.

    I'm not exactly sure. I didn't think it could ever happen, but it did in N.O. I couldn't even have imagined armed checkpoints in a U.S. city a few years go.

    foreveryoung, I agree with you, I would most likely not be there after a week of advanced notice, but then again, I've ridden out Hurricanes before in Houston, so I can't say that I absolutely would evacuate.

    Hopefully this situation will never occur on American soil again, but if it does, there is no guarantee that you would have 1-2 weeks advanced notice, either.

    I'm not saying I agree with those that stayed, but abandoning everything I own would be a hard decision to make. That being said, part of deciding where I would live when I got out of the Navy was based on considerations like that. I chose Dallas instead of Galveston or Houston for precisely that reason. I think living below sea level or on a fault line or beneath an active volcano are all bad juju.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  12. #11
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    That wasn't advice, that was a purely hypothetical scenario!!!

    Hey, I respect those guys that are going to try to kill a bunch of cops over this - OK, no I don't, but that's neither here nor there... You'll be dead, your family will be without you (if they survive the crossfire), and your guns will still be gone. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to kill some misguided - but probably not evil - cops at the same time. Bottom line - you lose, and you will have done a lot more to hurt gun rights than to help them...

    On another note, the cops didn't just take weapons from folks in really badly hit areas, they took them from the rich folk up in the French Quarter, too. Stupid, illegal, maddening - all of that and more. Worth killing or dieing over? Not to me. This wasn't the End of Days where the entire government was trying to seize all weapons and enforce some sort of tyrannical dystopia on the world, it was an isolated incident that involved the (very) bad decisions of a few local politicians. You knew that your rights were not in danger of being taken away forever, though your life certainly was. IMO, not the time or place to go down swinging (because you will go down).
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Have well hidden back-up guns? This is a bad scene, any way you slice it. You can't offer armed resistance to the cops - you'll lose, and the "best case" is that you kill some poor Joe who is just trying to do his job (admittedly, he's in the wrong to follow those orders, but is it worth killing him over it?) On the other hand, there's no way I'd sit still in some flooded out no-man's-land completely devoid of arms...

    So - hypothetically of course - buy an AK and a Glock, seal them up really well, and hide them where they absolutely will not be found. When you are asked if you have weapons, say yes, turn over the ones you have on you/available at the time, try as hard as you can to get a receipt, and then wave at the nice officers as they continue on their merry way. Then, go dig up the goodies, and defend your life.
    Agreed for the most part. That's my plan is to keep a few stashed away. Caught out in the open surrounded by M16's I may have no choice but to "temporarily" surrender arms, give a friendly wave bye, and then go and dig up the stash later to stay alive. Invaded in my home though is a different story. As far as this:
    (admittedly, he's in the wrong to follow those orders, but is it worth killing him over it?)
    Personally, yes. No man has the right to INITIATE force against others. Make no mistake, that IS what is happening in that scenario. I will repel with whatever means necessary and as long as humanly possible in that specific situation. No man has any right to come into my domain and outright attack me without provocation. That's violating my right to life any which way you cut it.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    I don't think anybody wants to 'kill a bunch of cops over this'. I'm actually the exact opposite. Going down in a 'blaze of glory', doesn't exactly appeal to me. And taking peoples lives who are trying to do their duty, as they understand it, is definitely not part of the plan.

    I'm just trying to figure out what we, as responsible gun owners, have learned from the Katrina incident. So far it seems like the answer is just to 'not put yourself in that situation'. I was hoping for something better, but I guess this isn't a very easy situation to figure out, even in hindsight.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    Who is John Galt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Tough spot to be in! I don't want to shoot a cop, and I don't want to GET shot...not much of a choice...settle it later with an attorney!

    Stay armed...stay safe!
    I think that's kind of the crux of the issue.
    That option is taken away from you.
    The ability to protect yourself is taken away from you, therefore you must now depend on other people to keep you safe.

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    No, it's a terrible situation. Hopefully, governments have learned something from it. Certainly, we have learned something from it - have a back up plan.

    And packinnova, I understand your position, if it is some sort of break the door down invasion. By and large, however, that isn't what happened - the police knocked, asked about guns, and took what they found. They didn't initiate force (in the physical sense) against anyone, and no one's life was in danger unless they used force to resist. I know it was a bad, bad scene, and I am disgusted by the "leaders" who ordered this and by the complete lack of resistance from the cops, but I'm still not willing to kill anyone over it. The temporary infringement on my rights, while reprehensible, isn't a capital crime. TOTAL and PERMANENT infringement, on the other hand, might draw a different response.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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