Is it time to become proactive ?

Is it time to become proactive ?

This is a discussion on Is it time to become proactive ? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Leading up to the election I take note that the media is steadily escalating the coverage of shootings , any shooting . There has been ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Is it time to become proactive ?

    Leading up to the election I take note that the media is steadily escalating the coverage of shootings , any shooting . There has been and will continue to be a lot of discussion on how we can " safeguard " students , gvt employees , ourselves " , ect ... However i note little to no coverage on common sense gun laws ( allow folk to carry nationwide under any states ccw licence , like a drivers licence allows you to drive ) . You may cry that different states have different standards of where you may carry .. well the same is true with how you may drive . If your from out here where we allow right on red , and you right on red where prohibited you get a fine , enough of them and you loose your driving privileges . I see no reason we cannot mandate the same carry rights as we have driving privlages , and do it within states rights to regulate instate activity , as well as our inate right to be armed . The ( two if i remember right ) states can do what they are now by at low to no cost cutting you a billfold card to show the rest of em should you need to travel out of state . Folks as of this date ( 3-3-08 ) some 31 states ag offices have filed briefs in support of heller in the case of heller VS DC .



    Now i am not advocating a " dance in the blood " campaign as brady has done in any fashion, however i question when i look at over all polls that it is not time to push for ANY ccw to be recognised everywhere that allows ccw at all . Ie if your from jersy and have a fla or utah non res it is valid in any state that allows ccw . we will go for true nation wide later ,( if you learn nothing else from the gun grabbers learn incriments ).

    My question is ( and my daughter has the ability to carry on campus ) Just how many folk die to obey an outdated law. When do we as a gun community start to get proactive ? I honestly dont know if its now , but imho its soon .. dammed soon .


    this thread is emotional , but calls for nothing illegal , I for speaking for myself have to say have we have barrak or hillery either may or arguably will win the presidency , in either event and no matter how they feel we have an assured stall , ( they dont want a repeat of 96 lol ) My question is boiled down , " Is it time to call the blue dogs to leash and establish a defacto federal standard that consists of if you can legaly carry in your home state you can nationwide , and by that tie it to federal funding , in much the way they do highways or recognition of dl's today .

    So tho i rambled a bit what think you , is it time for a national ccw in the same sense that we have a national DL ?
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array sniper58's Avatar
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    Not a bad idea - people are becoming brain washed by MSM about any shooting. Sheeple will hear enough of it and pull the wrong lever in November. It would have to be a grass-roots effort as I doubt any organization has funds earmarked for much of an ad campaign. The other question is: which newspaper editor is going to allow a bunch of letters from gun owners talking about when ccw was used to defend? Perhaps if enough gun owners flood the paper with letters to the editor one or two might get buried in the 5 or 10 anti's letters. Our side certainly doesn't fit the MSM template. GOA might be a good resource for such an effort.
    Tim
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Aren't there issues with such federal legislation? It may not pass constitutional muster any more than a nationwide ban would. DL's do, because they are directly linked to interstate commerce -- which allows some regulation. Liquor laws standardizing the drinking age were done by bullying the states because they essentially couldn't make a national drinking age. I'm really unsure of the law around this, but it's a good topic.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Aren't there issues with such federal legislation? It may not pass constitutional muster any more than a nationwide ban would. DL's do, because they are directly linked to interstate commerce -- which allows some regulation. Liquor laws standardizing the drinking age were done by bullying the states because they essentially couldn't make a national drinking age. I'm really unsure of the law around this, but it's a good topic.
    Tho dl's and the right to carry are apples and oranges I did lump them together from an " legislative " perspective . IMHO once we cede our right to be armed to be subject of any permitting for any reason by the government we have in fact lowered it to the level of privilege for a drivers license . If we all agree that we need any " permit " to carry such as we need a " permit " to drive shouldnt they be treated the same in the sense that if you have the ticket from any one state shouldnt it be good in all states ? . As for the interstate commerce issue , well we have regulated firarms and ownership of some classes of same thro this ploy since 1939 or so . Remember machine guns, short barrel guns , AOWs , silencers , ect were not made illegal , they were taxed as an item of interstate commerce. No matter how you feel about it real regulation of full auto did not happen untill 1989 ( iirc ) when they closed the regestry for new weapons . With this in mind i can see at least a basis for the feds to desire and encorage consistancy between states much as we do with driving permits today . Its food for thought on ways to get carry more widespread than now without any constitutional issues that might arise from the fed .gov either demanding or denying ccw .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    As many things as the Federal government has messed up, i.e. everything they've tried, from Social Security to securing the border, to entitlements, to medicare, all they have ended up doing is adding more beurocracy and making everything cost more. I don't want the federal gov't involved in my concealed carry any more than I want a Dem for president. If the federal gov't takes over registration and licensing, it will be a few short steps before we are regulated and licensed into giving up our concealed carry. Just my .02
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    They don't have to take over licensing, just require all states to honor ANY states valid License. I'd like to see that. And do away with those confusing helpless victim zones.
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  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Cuppy more or less simplified my thoughts here . and again i question is it time to go on the offense or hunker down and protect what we have now ? IMHO ( barring anyone having photos taken with dead girls or live boys ) we will have a democrat president next year , what will we do with that ? We actually have a good 2nd amendment base to build from now with the freshmen blue dog dems strongly in support of gun rights , Dare we expand on the issue or should we cede the next 4 years to the " progressive " end of the dem party ? I dont ask this to sew desent , I ask because i simply dont know and want to sample opinions . If your opinion runs strict party line post it , If it does not post it , All i ask is that you post your reasoning . I feel that we need to keep pressure on and go for a mandate that any state will recognize any other states ccw ( this would pretty much pooch a couple of states which do not issue but it is a step ) . I further propose we push for ccw on ANY public property and then compromise by agreeing to disarm in statehouses , courthouses and at local .gov meetings .. Not because i agree with that , but it will be the last bastion that the hopolophobes stand firm on .

    Again what think you ?
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Dare we expand on the issue or should we cede the next 4 years to the " progressive " end of the dem party ? I dont ask this to sew desent , I ask because i simply dont know and want to sample opinions .
    Probably no surprise, but I think we need to divorce the 2A issue from party affiliation. There needs to be a party-free organization or movement to push these things forward. The NRA, in my opinion, isn't looking out for peoples best interests. As one small example, they tried everything in their power to block Heller from reaching the supreme court -- only when it became inevitable did they sign on and join in.

    A grass roots, non-partisan, NEW group pushing for these things would be more effective, IMHO. If you read the Brady Bunch's propaganda, virtually everything they say about any pro-2A action refers to it as an "NRA action". Blithely attributing everything to the NRA is a tactic they use to divide any attempt at action by party lines.

    To organize a group whose charter includes, by design, members of all political parties, you can appeal to the broader 2A base.

    I worked on the board of directors for a non-profit, non political advocacy organization and have some idea of how such things are built... but it's not trivial, and it's not cheap. It's also not trivial to separate 2A from party.

    I have noticed a sea change in recent years. Where politicians, especially liberal ones, liked to refer to the 2A in terms of hunting, you're now seeing mention of "self defense" far more frequently. Perhaps that's because I'm paying attention more.

    If I had my druthers, and a bottomless wallet, I would start an organization focused entirely on self defense and tackle legislation from that angle. I would actively recruit law enforcement support, the support of womens groups and push hard to get support from the blue dogs. The way we analyze shootings in the news here should be press releases for such an organization. A good shoot should be lauded as a success story, and a bad shoot should be outright and harshly condemned. Shift the focus away from the guns (that's where the brady bunch wants it) and direct the focus squarely on defense.

    To make an overly long post come to the point -- I think it IS a time for action. But what would you propose we do about it?
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array Fast Cloud's Avatar
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    Unfortunatly, big govt. only listens to big money...i.e. special interest groups. Be thankful we have one...the NRA. Without it we'd probably be another England by now. It's a small way to be pro-active but an important one. Not all special interest groups get attention...only the ones with big money. Support the NRA...it's the biggest and most well known one we have. Do they get it right every time? No, but they're all we've really got and without our help they'll lose more and more battles. Nobody's perfect, but we need to remember who the real enemy is here...gun grabbers.
    "Any rationally thinking person is armed" ---Hinds Co. constable John Lewis

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  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    they tried everything in their power to block Heller from reaching the supreme court -- only when it became inevitable did they sign on and join in.

    I have to chime in and say that imho this is not accurate . In fact the nra did try to dissuade what is now heller for a case they thought was better , once that did not happen they tried to " lend support " ( take over ) parker - now Heller , and have been rebuffed at every turn . Once it became a predestained fact the nra got behind it . The nra would have prefered a less " for all the marbles " case , however they are behind our rights . You may of course cuss them all you want sir however they long ago adopted our foes tactics ( incrimintalissim ) and for us gun owners it is not all bad .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  11. #11
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    However i note little to no coverage on common sense gun laws ( allow folk to carry nationwide under any states ccw licence , like a drivers licence allows you to drive ) . You may cry that different states have different standards of where you may carry .. well the same is true with how you may drive . If your from out here where we allow right on red , and you right on red where prohibited you get a fine , enough of them and you loose your driving privileges . I see no reason we cannot mandate the same carry rights as we have driving privlages , and do it within states rights to regulate instate activity , as well as our inate right to be armed.

    .....


    Now i am not advocating a " dance in the blood " campaign as brady has done in any fashion, however i question when i look at over all polls that it is not time to push for ANY ccw to be recognised everywhere that allows ccw at all . Ie if your from jersy and have a fla or utah non res it is valid in any state that allows ccw . we will go for true nation wide later ,( if you learn nothing else from the gun grabbers learn incriments ).

    ...

    My question is boiled down , " Is it time to call the blue dogs to leash and establish a defacto federal standard that consists of if you can legaly carry in your home state you can nationwide , and by that tie it to federal funding , in much the way they do highways or recognition of dl's today .
    We are already afforded that interpretation.

    Article 4 Section 1 - Each State to Honor all others
    Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

    Full Faith and Credit is why your driver's license is valid in the other states. It is why your marriage is valid in the other states. It is why your CCW is valid in other states.

    I am not willing to be a test case, however.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Full Faith and Credit is why your driver's license is valid in the other states.
    Actually no. Actually a contractual device loosely known as the interstate compact is why your dl is valid in my state no matter where you are from , it is also why any ticket issued here has conciquinces in your home state and to your home dl . The states ( somewhat under federal pressure to do so ) agreed to honor each others licenses , tickets , fines , ect.. Part of the cost of driving in my state is the fact that an unpaid ticket here tho you may not be extradited and face trial for it , may well result in suspension of your dl by your home state unless and until you satisfy my state. This is not feds , this is contractual agreement among states . Once again i am not equating a civil right to a privlage ( bearing of arms vs driving on public lands ) However i am asking why is not a civil right as recognized as a privilege , and is it time to push
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    The nra would have prefered a less " for all the marbles " case
    That's the problem. This is ultimately for all the marbles. Incrementalism forces time, money and resources into tug-of-wars over pink guns instead of focusing time, money and resources on a supreme court ruling that should've been made decades ago.

    We don't have to fear being right.

    It raises a mental image of the man sliding off a cliff grasping at tiny weeds to keep himself from falling -- it doesn't really change the fact that he's going to fall. Maybe I'm a pessimest in that regard, but in the case of incrementalism, we're on the losing end. Had Heller gone up decades ago, pre-brady, I suspect we might be on firmer soil today. Both sides were afraid of a Heller and both sides avoided it and chose instead to quibble about how many bullets you're allowed to have in a magazine.

    Fundamentally speaking: I believe incrementalism only serves to ultimately remove rights because it reduces arguments to whim, fancy and fear. Otherwise neutral people are likely to side with "pink gun bans" when in general they don't side with "gun bans".
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array sniper58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPR View Post
    Fundamentally speaking: I believe incrementalism only serves to ultimately remove rights because it reduces arguments to whim, fancy and fear. Otherwise neutral people are likely to side with "pink gun bans" when in general they don't side with "gun bans".
    +1

    This is how other rights have been slowly removed/watered down. This is how the school systems across the country have gotten away from educating, etc., etc.......... This is also how we (gun owners) have been able to be divided. GOA v NRA, handgun v long gun, target v hunting v self-defense. We are all in this together. I'd support an organization that puts forth the defensive aspect of our rights. I am amazed at how many gun owners don't support any organization - it's as if the right is taken for granted and it will somehow remain in place forever!
    Tim
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    Si vis pacem, para bellum
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Redneck,

    I didn't mean to thread hijack... Can you tell me what it is that you have in mind when you talk about being more pro-active?
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

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