Boy Punished for T-Shirt With Gun Image (Merged)

This is a discussion on Boy Punished for T-Shirt With Gun Image (Merged) within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Ghettokracker71 Interesting,....I'm a manager of a shop. Last shop i worked at,...The best guy I've ever hired wears an earring when hes ...

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Thread: Boy Punished for T-Shirt With Gun Image (Merged)

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghettokracker71 View Post
    Interesting,....I'm a manager of a shop. Last shop i worked at,...The best guy I've ever hired wears an earring when hes off,(forgets and wears it coming into work too,lol.)and typically is found in a torn shirt,...WHy is his shirt usually torn? OH, I forgot to mention. I manage an auto shop. Hes always working on his/his friends cars and usually gets it snagged on something. Hes a "punk kid" yet he sells more than ANYBODY else in the shop,and customers ask for him by name when they come in because they love him.I regret that hiring decision (/sarcasm.). His tshirt puts NOBODY in danger. Period. Its pro-america,supporting the country his living in. Its not like he showed in a "viva jihad" or "I like to blow up buidings" , "I kill infendels" or a large swastica on a red tshirt,...Its a patriotic shirt supporting our armed troops. I fail to see how this is an unneeded distraction,its a shirt! I can understand if it has curse words on it,or giant genitalia or something highly offensive,...Get real gramps, its called freedom. Either let us have it,or not.
    Sorry, I don't work in an autoshop, I work in corporate america...and while there are some highly professional guys that have earrings...they don't wear t-shirts or ripped jeans, and they don't wear things to get a rise out of other people...The kid was testing his boundries..his parents let him. Now the parents are upset. The parents will lose this case, and all it will do is add more money to my taxes for having to devote gov't personnel to such a trivial matter. And if they win, well, that's even more of my taxes that go to something stupid.

    And as far as if profiling or stereotypes are appropriate, I'm not even going to get into that. But it's a fact, and the more this society does to entitle people into thinking they can do/dress/say whatever they want, the further we sink into the cess pool.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  3. #17
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    *Warning* Dissenting post...
    In a perfect world, students would wear clothing that would not detract from learning the 3 R's. I, as a teacher, would not want a student wearing anything that might be mistaken for a billboard advocating anything - be it s-e-x of any kind, a political person (even one from South America), liquor, smoking anything, or a shirt advocating 2A.
    Students, while forming opinions are actually there to gain knowledge, not to be the center of attention.

  4. #18
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    This is yet another issue that no one seems to be able to grasp rationally. (By "no one", I'm not referring to folks here, but rather the people who actually have authority over these things...)

    If a school wants to exercise control over what a student wears, they should adopt an old-fashioned uniform. I don't much care what the uniform is, so long as its, well, uniform throughout the student body. If they are unwilling to do so for whatever reason, they should be forced to allow just about whatever the student wants to wear.

    These are the only two options that make any sense to me. To say that there are "standards" without having a strict definition that anyone / everyone can understand regarding what those "standards" are, leaves the students & their parents without any real guidelines for what is or is not appropriate. Obviously, both the kid in question here & his parents felt his tee shirt was fine - the school administrators disagreed. The kid is being punished over a differing interpretation of the "dress code", when there is no real, objective definition of what that "dress code" is! Any teacher or administrator can declare just about anything to be "disruptive" or "offensive" because there are no set standards used to determine these things - just what someone believes or "feels".

    If I had kids, I would not allow them to wear a tee shirt such as the one described above. And, I am all in favor of schools instituting a real uniform policy for all students. Doing so is the only way to avoid situations like this, and is the only completely fair way have a "dress code" - it can't be misinterpreted, and a student is either in uniform or not. Very simple.

    All of this can be avoided by having school boards do common sense things. Instead, they don't, and we get stupid lawsuits like this one. I don't agree that it is frivolous because I see this situation as being caused by a lack of standards that could have very easily been put into place. But it is most definitely stupid, as it could just as easily been avoided.
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  5. #19
    Member Array landelmer's Avatar
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    How will our children be able to stand up for their rights when they are taught that their rights can be surpressed at any time when they are young?

    They won't and that is how we have arrived at the point we are at today!

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dang.45 View Post
    The kid is being punished over a differing interpretation of the "dress code", when there is no real, objective definition of what that "dress code" is! Any teacher or administrator can declare just about anything to be "disruptive" or "offensive" because there are no set standards used to determine these things - just what someone believes or "feels".
    While I agree with most of your post, and I agree that the dress code should be more detailed so as to elimimate any problems that could occur, I object strenuously to your first sentence.

    This kid is not being punished because of a differing interpretation of the 'dress code'.

    It's not like this kid showed up to school and they told him to leave...He showed up to school, caused a distraction, the teachers and administrators asked him to turn it inside out, he refused, and he got sent home. Same thing happened to me in my story above. We weren't allowed to wear anything with a Confederate Flag...I thought my issue was worth standing up for, and took the 3 days suspension.

    But it's not an interpretation issue...He wore a controversial shirt to get a rise out of people. He was told it was inappropriate and asked to turn it inside out. He refused. He got sent home...Sounds pretty simple to me.

    Punk kid, punk parents, He can do whatever he wants cuz it's protected by his 'rights'...Get real...Since when did a student in a H.S, have rights?

    I remember having to bend over the Principals desk for swats several times because I thought my rights were more important than policy.

    I hope the parents get thrashed, and hopefully there is some statute that makes the parents have to pay the defendants fees for attorneys.

    This mine, mine, mine and I can do whatever I want attitude needs to be squashed end up on welfare.

    This kid tried to get a rise out of people, he did, and he wouldn't back down...been there, done that. I grew up.

    If this kid's parent's weren't morons he might grow up, too.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  7. #21
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by landelmer View Post
    How will our children be able to stand up for their rights when they are taught that their rights can be surpressed at any time when they are young?

    They won't and that is how we have arrived at the point we are at today!
    Exactly what rights to children have? The right to cause a disruption? The right to disobey authority figures?

    No right was supressed. Children should go to class, obey instructions, be quiet and learn the material being taught. Most of all, they should learn respect. They won't and that is how we have arrived at the point we are at today.

    Suspended? He should have been sent to the principal's office. The principal should have explained why he was being punished and then given him a paddling. His parents should have been called to pick him up, make him change his clothes and return him to class.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Suspended? He should have been sent to the principal's office. The principal should have explained why he was being punished and then given him a paddling. His parents should have been called to pick him up, make him change his clothes and return him to class.
    He was given all of those options...he chose not to take them...He and his parents escalated this needlessly. Heck, he was even given the option to turn his shirt inside out.


    Btw, SD, I agree whole-heartedly...this kid needs a paddling...but his parent's do, too.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  9. #23
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Kerbouchard-

    A couple of points of clarification:

    1 - I didn't see anywhere in the article that it says the student "caused a distraction" of any type. All I saw was that the student was told to turn his shirt inside out. This is the reason I focused on how the administration seems to be acting in an arbitrary way, and why the lack of a uniform makes this kind of thing almost inevitable. Whether or not this shirt was disruptive is unknown. All I see is an adult asking a student to do something based upon a policy that has no objective standard that can be articulated. Since I don't accept the notion that a public school teacher or administrator has the right or authority to discipline a child for arbitrary reasons, my principled response is to side with the parents. If a student refuses to comply with a request based on a written rule with an objective standard, then the kid deserves whatever he gets. I have yet to hear of a high school dress code that has a clear, objective standard, so principle says the student can object.

    2 - "Punk kid, punk parents" - I'd tend to think this is probably the case as well. Like I said, I wouldn't let my kid wear something like that to school. School is not the place to "make a statement" or "express yourself". It is a place to learn, period.

    This of course leads me back to my point - schools should set and enforce a uniform dress code. This sets up a standard that is by its very nature objective, definable, and describable to even the dimmest of dim parents &/or students. It also eliminates the possibility of a student trying to "express their 1st Amendment rights" or "get a rise" out of anyone - school is neither the time nor the place for this.

    My ideal outcome for this is for a judge, as early as possible, before the city has spent too much money or time (because I totally agree with you on this being a waste of both), to toss out the case with instructions to the school board to implement a uniform so as to avoid the possibility of a teacher or administrator acting in an arbitrary way. Solves my issues, keeps the students from acting out (at least in regards to their clothing), and keeps the parents from wasting everyone's time & money with this kind of stupid lawsuit.
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array glock27mark's Avatar
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    deadly t-shirt

    Quote Originally Posted by jackdog View Post
    Can anyone say politically correct BS.
    politically bs
    (SHERIFF BUFORD T. JUSTICE) "what the hell is
    the world coming too"

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  11. #25
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    I work in a school with the whole 'flock'...each and every day....
    I wear a new anti- after shave...they stay away!
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  12. #26
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    dang.45, I appreciate each and every one of your arguments. I agree that there should be some sort of objective standard so that anybody could understand what was appropriate and what was not,,,only so the half-wit morons would be able to understand.

    As far as it wasn't 'documented' as a disturbance...(insert four letter word here), the kid was asked to change his shirt inside out. He refused. If a teacher thought it was enough of a distraction to ask him to change his shirt, than that's all I need to know.

    There are normally 30 students in a public H.S. class, and I don't give a darn what 1 out of 30 wants to do. If that 1 out of 30 getting sent to the office helps 2 or 3 kids, then I am all for it.

    I am tired of this entitlement B.S. At some point in time, our youth has to grow up. This kind of thinking is what led to http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-you-walk.html

    This me, me, me attitude has got to be stopped...I'm glad this kid got stopped before he ended up outside somebody's window.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  13. #27
    Member Array jeffsmith's Avatar
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    A few years back
    a kid in a neighboring town where I used to live
    got picked up by the police for playing war in the woods

    Heck if that was a problem when I was a kid
    me and my friends would be doing life

  14. #28
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    This BS is a complete waste of time and money.

    There is nothing wrong with the kid's t-shirt.

    The school caused the confrontation not the kid or parents.

    Mountain made of nothing.

    We always carried pocket knives to school. At 14 years old, we could drive to school in pickups with our guns, ammo, and knives, in plain view. No problem whatsoever.

    Far too many good-doer's who cannot mind their own business and want to stick their noses in other people's business.

    Far too many bad gals and guys on the streets today because of these same good-doer's are too wimpy to want to use a rope on the court house square every SAT morning. All these killers, rapist, robber's (any kind of robber), car theft, etc - hang them all on the FIRST offense on the first SAT after the crime is committed.

    Worrying about t-shirts like this is wimpy BS !

  15. #29
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    I dont understand how the kid made a distraction simply by wearing a shirt. If the teacher had ignored the shirt then there wouldnt have been a problem. I think it's more of a case where some power tripping teacher has feelings opposite to what the shirt said and wanted to push some power that he didnt have over the kid. And the kid had enough balls to know that the teacher has no right to say what he can and cant wear so he told the teacher to leave him alone. And the parents are sticking by their kid.

    I've been through this same thing. My parents stuck by me when some teacher on a power trip over extended their authority over me and i told them where to go.

    Heres an example. My little brother is a daibetic. He was in lunch line and realized he forgot his insulin shot. Ran to get it out of his locker, came back and got right back into the line where he was. A teacher noticed this and made him stand with his nose the to chalk board and not get his food til everyone else had. My brother said hes diabetic and that he needed to eat. The teacher didnt care and made him stand right there anyway. Luckily my sister saw him and chewed out the teacher and took him through the lunch line despite the teachers protests. She got into trouble and called my parents who ripped the principal and teacher a new one. They could have sued but dont believe in doing that.

    Teachers despite what alot of them that, i've had to deal with, like the believe arent masters of the school and dont have supreme power over the kids. If there is a dress code issue it goes through he school board.
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; March 12th, 2008 at 01:39 PM. Reason: Deleted a language workaround.
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  16. #30
    Senior Member Array agentmel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderdude View Post
    Our modern education system is nothing more than a huge babysitting center.
    It would be dangerous to think this is true. As a teacher myself, our government run schools are often centers for the dissemination of socialist, collectivist, self-esteem cult propaganda.

    Public educational institutions should be dismantled, not just sued. The school's decision was arbitrary which is, in fact, the way all gov't decisions must be. There is no other possibility. They are either arbitrary in a way we like, or in a way we don't. Ultimately, the gov't is baaaaaaaddd at everything, which is why it should do almost nothing.

    We can disagree with the kid's choice to wear a particular shirt or not, but as a free person, he should not be punished for what should be his (and his parents') choice because of some way someone might feel. The teachers at my school are often more emotionally unstable and prone to irrational fear than my students are.

    I've said it before, I'll say it again: Homeschool your kids if you want them to get a good education and have your values. Education is too important to be left to the whims are self-important bureaucrats.

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