Boy Punished for T-Shirt With Gun Image (Merged)

This is a discussion on Boy Punished for T-Shirt With Gun Image (Merged) within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Southtexas, your rebuttal is well written and obviously more in line with the "Our rights first, screw everything else attitude" of this forum as indicated ...

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Thread: Boy Punished for T-Shirt With Gun Image (Merged)

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Southtexas, your rebuttal is well written and obviously more in line with the "Our rights first, screw everything else attitude" of this forum as indicated by the +10, and so on. Not that I have anything against that. I believe my rights are first, up until they begin to infringe upon other's rights.(sometimes it probably goes a little further than "up until they begin". I probably push that line fairly often)

    If I had worn that shirt to work today, I would have a good chance of getting fired or sent home to change.

    It's not hypocritical to say that if 1 person wants to disrupt 30 that it is unacceptable.

    I don't agree with most school's policies. I don't think it should be subjective and I have fought that fight, took my 3 days vacation, and lived on to fight another day. Do I think my shirt with a Malcom X and Rebel flag blurred together was a problem? Nope. Was it a distraction? Absolutely. I argued, they argued. They told me to turn my shirt inside out, I told them they can't make me do anything. Well, I was right. They couldn't make me do anything, but they definitely could suspend me for disrupting class, and they did. To tell you the truth, I enjoyed the 3 days off. Only 3 days I ever missed from school; from K-12.

    Yes, life should have rules that are laid out plain and clear. But, that is not reality. Unless you are self-employed, people live and die, feed their family or not, based on subjective rules of conduct.

    Do I like it? Nope. I would love to tell everybody around me, "This is me, take it or leave it." But that isn't possible. Life is full of subjective rules. Hardly anything is ever layed out perfectly clear. But to assume that an authority figure(the school in this case) owes it to anybody to make perfectly clear their rules and guidelines, in my opinion is ludicrous. (based on reality, not my ideal eutopian world)

    Life isn't fair. We have a choice to make. Conform, pretend to conform, or go broke fighting for every cause. Somebody called me a hypocrite. They were right. I have very clear ideals, hence the signature. "Who is John Galt?"

    I find myself forced to compromise. Success or ideals? Well, unfortunately, I am not independently wealthy, therefore I must cooperate with people whose ideals do not mirror mine.

    I might even change my signature to: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference."

    In my opinion, a middle school or highschool student has not proven the 'wisdom to know the difference.'
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southtexas View Post
    Your points are well written but my concern here is that either there is a dress code or there is not a dress code, Dress codes adress the above reasons you list, and are made policy for everyone to follow.
    http://www.pennmanor.net/policy/200/221-101.pdf

    Students shall not wear clothing, jewelry or any other attire that present...messages that disrupt or create a reasonable apprehension of disruption of the educational program, including messages that advocate violence...
    The shirt was disruptive, we all agree with that. Now whether the administration caused the disruption or the school did is irrevelevant.
    The shirt was violent in nature. Regardless if we approve of the violence, it was a violent message. The kid was wrong, the parents are wrong, they are going to lose the case, and it's a waste of time and money all the way around.

    As it turns out, he did violate dress code policy.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  4. #48
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Has anyone bothered to read the dress code of the school?

    Just in case anyone wants to read it, then argue whether this kids shirt was covered or not, here is a link to the code.

    http://www.pennmanor.net/policy/200/221-101.pdf

    BTW, if a teacher tells my kid to turn his shirt inside out, he darn well better do it. If I disagree with the teachers actions, I will take it up with them. I better not get a call from the school telling me my son got expelled cause he didn't follow a request that was made by school staff, which could cause no harm to the child. Persons under the age of 18, have very few "rights" that are not given to them by their gaurdians.
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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Has anyone bothered to read the dress code of the school?
    http://www.pennmanor.net/policy/200/221-101.pdf
    That's just funny! Great minds think alike.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  6. #50
    Member Array Bline's Avatar
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    farronwolf I agree with you. My child had beter do what they're told by authority figures(barring harming themselves and others) or there will be hell to pay. I think what bothers me about this is the attitude of the school. Situations like this and the aforemetnioned codes and regulations is just one more reason among many that my wife and I homeschool our children. That way my kids can learn gun safety and personal protection in school :)
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  7. #51
    Member Array Southtexas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Has anyone bothered to read the dress code of the school?

    Just in case anyone wants to read it, then argue whether this kids shirt was covered or not, here is a link to the code.

    http://www.pennmanor.net/policy/200/221-101.pdf

    BTW, if a teacher tells my kid to turn his shirt inside out, he darn well better do it. If I disagree with the teachers actions, I will take it up with them. I better not get a call from the school telling me my son got expelled cause he didn't follow a request that was made by school staff, which could cause no harm to the child. Persons under the age of 18, have very few "rights" that are not given to them by their gaurdians.

    I agree with you here, as far as the student should have obeyed first, then had the parent challenge the ruling later, the dress code was violated.

    My concern here is that a student would be allowed to wear a shirt with the peace sign on it, which is an expression as well, one that would cause distractions. A teacher/staff member of this school could say that a shirt that said "go army" was violent in nature as well, because the Job of the Army is to defend our country.

    My point/rant earlier was not about a students rights, It was about a uniform consistant policy, which by the way this schools dress code does not measure up to. The intent of the dress code is to ensure a proper learning environment, and my point here is exactly that. When you leave that determination as to what is distracting up to the teacher/administration instead of having a blanket policy regarding all printed shirts someone will cause a distraction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    Southtexas, your rebuttal is well written and obviously more in line with the "Our rights first, screw everything else attitude" of this forum as indicated by the +10, and so on. Not that I have anything against that. I believe my rights are first, up until they begin to infringe upon other's rights.(sometimes it probably goes a little further than "up until they begin". I probably push that line fairly often)

    If I had worn that shirt to work today, I would have a good chance of getting fired or sent home to change.

    It's not hypocritical to say that if 1 person wants to disrupt 30 that it is unacceptable.



    In my opinion, a middle school or highschool student has not proven the 'wisdom to know the difference.'
    I am sorry if that is the impression I gave, I specifically stated my child would not violate the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southtexas View Post
    I obey the laws, if there is a law that says my son or daughter can not bring printed shirts to class then they wont, (rules substituted here for school districts) but I will be damned if I will have a school board justify suspending my son/daughter because they dont agree with the message or statement that my child wears when they dont have a uniform policy against any statements. You dont like my message ok, just make sure I dont have to listen to anyone elses message either.

    My rights are no more important than the next guys, BUT EQUALLY important, and the dress code ensures some people can voice opinions that would be distracting IE the peace sign, or a shirt that said violence is always wrong. I am simply stating that you can not have it both ways here. I agree with your well written points about allowing distractions will cause harm to the other students, again this is not about my rights over someone elses its about an equality in rights concerning anything at a school. Back to the uniform standard/no printed anything on clothing.

    " In my opinion, a middle school or highschool student has not proven the 'wisdom to know the difference.'" I think by your statement here we are on the same page there, no student should have the right to distrupt the class, again my problem is that the dress code is not worded to acheive this, but worded to support only one side of a view regarding violence.
    Last edited by Southtexas; March 27th, 2008 at 05:07 PM. Reason: inserted quotes for reference

  8. #52
    Member Array Magilla82ABN's Avatar
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    I agree with both of yall on the No student should be allowed to cause a distraction and that there should be a better defined dress code.
    When I was in highschool we were given a little book with all the rule and what not and there was indeed a section on dress code. I was sent home my senoir year because I have a rebel flag front license plate which I had from the time I was allowed to drive and wore Dixie Shirts at least once a week. I think that the kid did violate the dress code and should be punished. IMO the lawsuit is frivalas as stated earlier.
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  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southtexas View Post
    no student should have the right to distrupt the class, again my problem is that the dress code is not worded to acheive this, but worded to support only one side of a view regarding violence.
    The dress code is worded suffinciently. The kid broke the rules, he got punishsed. That's it! It's done. The case is gone, they lost.

    There IS a dress code. It has been linked or quoted several times. The kid broke the rules.

    I'm done with this thread. Refer to post 14, 46 and 53.
    Last edited by Kerbouchard; March 28th, 2008 at 08:08 AM.
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  10. #54
    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    Hope they win.
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  11. #55
    Member Array alfack's Avatar
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    Exactly how does the t-shirt disrupt the class? It's like saying guns kill people.

    It sounds to me like the teacher disrupted the class by bringing attention to the shirt. Maybe more attention should be paid to the people who were "disrupted" by the shirt, whatever disrupted means. I mean, if I was in high screwl again and saw a kid wearing that shirt, I might say something like "cool shirt" and move on. It's not like I'm going to be jumping up and down, throwing a tizzy fit and shooting spit wads at the teacher, having witnessed said shirt.

    No matter what you wear, say or do, there are always going to be some people that disagree with you. It's like the dweebs who make the airport take down Christmas trees because they themselves are not Christian.

    I'm sick of how most of our society has devolved into a bunch of PC pansy control freaks. Nobody can force you to partake in activities that you find offensive. On the other side, what you find offensive may not be to others. That's the beauty of living in a semi-free country. Stop trying to force your beliefs on others, i.e. "don't tread on me."

  12. #56
    Senior Member Array Slim_45's Avatar
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    I think it just gives them something to gripe about

    +1 for the kid to stand up for what he believes

  13. #57
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    The dress code is worded suffinciently. The kid broke the rules, he got punishsed. That's it! It's done. The case is gone, they lost. Get over it, and grow up.

    There IS a dress code. It has been linked or quoted several times. The kid broke the rules.

    I'm done with this thread. Refer to post 14, 46 and 53, Some of you guys need to grow up.
    This thread is back?

    I'm surprised that anyone thinks the child was in the right. He was suspended for disobeying authority AFTER he was given the opportunity to simply turn the shirt around. He is a trouble maker. His parents are trouble makers.

    No rights were violated. There are no damages. He did disrupt the class because his shirt, which by the way violated the dress code, was deemed by the authority figure to be a disruption. End of story.

    By sending your child to school you are giving authority to the school and the teacher. Children do not have the same rights as adults nor should they. Children go to school to learn. They are not there to express their individuality or assert their perceived rights. They should sit down, mind the teacher and learn the material. Anything else is a disruption of the class.

  14. #58
    Member Array StcLurker's Avatar
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    This kind of thing is one reason I avoid wearing shirts with logo's....well that and nobody is paying me to advertise but thats beside the point :)
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