Crappy Lawyer

Crappy Lawyer

This is a discussion on Crappy Lawyer within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; So says the NRA concerning Alan Gura, our guy presenting oral arguments before the Supreme Court in the Heller case. I was reading today's Novak ...

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Thread: Crappy Lawyer

  1. #1
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Crappy Lawyer

    So says the NRA concerning Alan Gura, our guy presenting oral arguments before the Supreme Court in the Heller case.

    I was reading today's Novak column, where he argued that the Bush Administration purposefully (or through ineptness) is trying to sabatoge the Heller case. We are aware of the [not too gun friendy] DOJ brief and we are also aware of Cheney's brief contradicting the thrust of the DOJ brief. Novak mentioned that the pro gun attorney, Alan Gura, was arguing before the Court for the first time and that was all part of Bush's plan to put an inexperienced lawyer at the front of the case.

    So I looked for information on Gura and found a post of his from 2005:

    The NRA did not want us to file the suit, or at least wanted the suit structured in such a way as to have the courts avoid, if possible, ruling on the Second Amendment issue.

    They don't think a decision on the Second Amendment should be risked. We don't think a decision on the Second Amendment can be avoided much longer, and are not impressed by the results of doing nothing to defend the right.

    They filed their copycat lawsuit as a direct response to ours, and filled it with their kitchen-sink garbage arguments that we had rejected as frivolous and contrary to our litigation objective. They immediately tried to use their lawsuit as a vehicle to wrest control of our case by seeking to have the matters consolidated.

    We opposed their consolidation effort and sought to have their attorney disqualified on account of various ethical problems we believe he has. For his part, he stated in his pleadings that the NRA case was filed because they think I'm a crappy lawyer, and he believes the case is too important not to let him run it. Call it a "Kelo" theory of attorney-client relationships.

    The court agreed with us that his conduct raised meaningful ethical and attorney-client professional responsibility issues that would overwhelm the case, and denied the attempt at consolidation. Unfortunately, he was not kicked off his case. Subsequently, both cases proceeded separately, before different judges.

    The NRA attorney made several critical mistakes that sank his case and greatly complicated ours. Of these, the gravest was suing Attorney General Ashcroft, who was not a necessary party to the case because the federal DOJ does not actually enforce the gun laws we are challenging, and would not enforce the gun laws under the theory of our case (simple home possession of a functioning firearm or handgun is a misdemeanor prosecuted by the city attorneys, not the feds). As we feared (and strongly advised our NRA-sponsored friend), suing Ashcroft triggered a much more vigorous defense of the city's gun laws than the city's lawyers, or their amici, could muster in our case.

    Ashcroft may have personally believed in the right to keep and bear arms, but his litigation position amounted to a theory that citizens could almost never have standing to assert this right in a civil case. This was largely adopted by the appellate court in throwing out the NRA copycat case.

    The standing defense, having been raised by Ashcroft in the NRA copycat lawsuit, was quickly exported into our case. But unlike the NRA's brilliant legal strategerist, we defeated it completely at the District Court level. We also believe that, even under the unhelpful standing doctrine generated by the NRA case on appeal, our own case is factually distinguishable and should proceed.
    We'll find out soon.

    Posted by: Alan Gura at July 14, 2005 2:48 AM
    http://www.tomgpalmer.com/archives/022501.php

    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=25482


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Huh... There's a long history of Crappy Lawyers winning important supreme court cases. Go crappy lawyers!
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  3. #3
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPR View Post
    Huh... There's a long history of Crappy Lawyers winning important supreme court cases. Go crappy lawyers!
    Yes, indeed! I mistitled the post. It is definitely not my opinion that he is a crappy lawyer. In fact, he seems to have successfully outmaneuvered the NRA lawyers. It just caught my eye that that is how he decribed the NRA's opinion of him.

    He has been involved from the beginning. I'm sure he will present a good case. Hell, the Second is so straightforward, I could present a good case. (Although it would be impossible for me to be respectful of Ginsburg.) It is interesting that the fate of this decision rides on a fifteen minute oral argument and whether the Justices really want to preserve the Founders intent and foresight.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Alan Gura, win or loose, has run a great suit.

    If he is a crappy lawyer, I hope to be as poor an attorney as he is.

  5. #5
    Member Array foreveryoung001's Avatar
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    Sometimes the best at oral arguments are not necessarily the best overall attorneys, but he has already gotten the original decision overturned in the appeals court. Why wouldn't they think he could take it all the way?

    I for one think its about time SCOTUS weighed in on this. We either have to face it now or later, and I say lets do it now! I still think the court is going to make this an extremely narrow judgment, but I don't agree with the NRA's attempt to stop it from going forward.

    And if the court rules against us... well, I was still under the impression that the Government was supposed to belong to us, "We the people". Maybe 80-million+ gun owners will just have to stand up and take it back...
    When the messenger arrives and says 'Don't shoot the messenger,' it's a good idea to be prepared to shoot the messenger, just in case.

  6. #6
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    Here is the Firm's Web Site:

    Gura & Possessky, P.L.L.C.

    Here's the link to the Heller case:

    Parker v. District of Columbia, et al. :: Gura & Possessky, P.L.L.C.

    He's up against some really big dogs with a lot of SCOTUS experience.

    Time will tell..........5 days............


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard

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    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    it aint about the oral arguments - it is mostly in the briefs...


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    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    One more reason not to give them my money. 2nd Ammendment Foundation does better work IMO
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Is it just me or is the Heller case actually a very direct threat to the NRA? If SCOTUS rules that 2A is an individual right and effectively wipes out most gun control laws, what do they have left? They could still fight for magazine capacity and bayonet lugs and folding stocks, but how much money is in that?
    The NRA has has raised millions of dollars year after year to fight the good fight for us. I admit I am not a current member and have been turned off by some of their policies over the years, but this is not just NRA bashing on my part here. Think of it this way What happens to the National Cancer Society if tomorrow someone comes up with a vaccine that prevents all forms of cancer? What do they do when the fight is won?
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    If that's the case I hope we no longer need the NRA!!
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Is it just me or is the Heller case actually a very direct threat to the NRA? If SCOTUS rules that 2A is an individual right and effectively wipes out most gun control laws, what do they have left? They could still fight for magazine capacity and bayonet lugs and folding stocks, but how much money is in that?
    I don't think it's the case that the NRA is worried about losing its market. I really don't. I don't believe they think that either. This won't nullify gun laws, but it will, perhaps, cause a flood of lawsuits to overturn gun laws.

    I think it's an embarassment to the NRA. After all, they're the largest gun lobby with buckets of money, and they haven't been able to get this far. In fact, they've made a policy of avoiding going this far. So arguably the most important 2A case ever and the NRA isn't in the middle of it? Embarassing. At least they are involved now, but I see that merely as a face saving, last ditch, no-other-option-left action.

    Remember, it CAN be dangerous for us. The ruling COULD go against us. It's fear that has kept them from going down this road, and indeed, fear that kept them from supporting Heller. I, for one, want the debate about "collective" vs. "Individual" to end. Forever. I'm reasonably confident in the outcome and will be utterly shocked if they decide it's a collective right. Perhaps I'll move to Panama at that point.

    For it's part, I suspect the NRA will trumpet its huge victory at that time, and conveniently downplay the fact that they tried to stop it in the first place.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    I think this disconnect has become a moot point now. The NRA and this Law firm have come to terms. They just did not want the NRA dictating to them the positions they would take. And initially NRA was worried they would flake off on some errant direction. The law firm and NRA have now come to understand each other and this has sort of become a non issue. There does not seem to be any animosity between the two now. They each have now come in line and the NRA now seems to be accepting of the reasons and supportive of the efforts.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Is it just me or is the Heller case actually a very direct threat to the NRA? If SCOTUS rules that 2A is an individual right and effectively wipes out most gun control laws, what do they have left? They could still fight for magazine capacity and bayonet lugs and folding stocks, but how much money is in that?
    The NRA has has raised millions of dollars year after year to fight the good fight for us. I admit I am not a current member and have been turned off by some of their policies over the years, but this is not just NRA bashing on my part here. Think of it this way What happens to the National Cancer Society if tomorrow someone comes up with a vaccine that prevents all forms of cancer? What do they do when the fight is won?
    The NRA's politcial side is actually a spin off of its orginal intent. It was originally founded in New York, by General Burnside to teach Union Soldiers how to shoot, after the civil wars.

    The NRA Political side did not come about until 1960's.

    NRA's main goal even today has always been to promote marksmanship and the safe and responsible use of firearms ownership. NRA has over 54,000 Firearms instructors (volunteers) that teach a wide spectrum of training curriculms.

    Home Firearm Safety (Unloading a gun in the home, and storing)
    Pistol
    Personal Protection both In and Outside the Home
    Muzzle Loading Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun
    Range Safety Officer
    Reloading (shotgun shell, and Metallic)
    an entire department targetting Youth programs that reaches thousands of kids each year.

    2006 Event

    That is just one camp in San Antonio that reaches over 750 kids each year.

    Publications, Membership, Competitions Camp Perry (1907) , NRA Law Enforcment Activities Division (1930 IIRC), All that stuff came later.

    There will always be another angle of attack that somebody else tries to use.

    For example: This BS about lead free ammuntion, and closing down ranges.

    With no ranges where do you practice?
    How much shooting are you going to do if your shooting $39.99 box frangible ammo?
    The range issue is huge, ranges are constantly coming under attack from liberals who want to shut them down.

    I know most of us who like to play with cool stuff focus souly on our issue. Get rid of NFA, the 1960 dumb law and all that. However, there are others out there that use guns and are constantly targeted. Hunters come under assault constantly. Don't get me wrong I'm into the EBR's, and Full Auto (I just got my F/A UZI) , I carry a gun every day, most days 2. However, I recognize other people to, and most of all the youth/ and Women in this country.

    Lets be Frank: Women in most house holds decide whether a gun comes in the home, Kids will decide whether or not they carry on our heritage of enjoying firearms. No other organzation targets these groups the way NRA does! GOA, 2nd Amendment Foundation, etc.....

    NRA Women's Programs
    NRA Youth Programs

    I challenge you to click some of the links and read what actually is being done with membership dues. Any good business person knows you must invest for the future. Does anybody else do this?
    In all my rambling gun owners will always be attacked targeted. Whether its Domestic or from another land.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  14. #14
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    I have to agree with Rob. Focusing on only one aspect of gun-rights is just leaving the guard down in other areas. The anti-rights lobby attacks from all sides. We should be diligent and do the same.
    The old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady commented on his wearing his sidearm. 'Sheriff, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?' 'No Ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle.'

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Fast Cloud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Lets be Frank: Women in most house holds decide whether a gun comes in the home,

    Whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA...I agreed with every letter of this post until I came to this little tidbit. My wife makes plenty of decisions in our home, but this is most certainly not one of them. As a husband it is my duty to protect us to the best of my ability from harm. As such, I'll be the one deciding on what tools I need to best accomplish that goal. She decides what we'll have for dinner tonight.

    We now continue with our regularly scheduled program...
    "Any rationally thinking person is armed" ---Hinds Co. constable John Lewis

    NRA member

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