Freedom under fire
This is a discussion on Freedom under fire within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
This verdict is incredible. Unless there is something about this fellow we're not seeing, this case makes no ...
March 15th, 2008 12:54 AM
Freedom under fire
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
This verdict is incredible. Unless there is something about this fellow we're not seeing, this case makes no sense whatsoever. Why didn't the NRA or the NSSF step up to the plate to defend this guy? A good expert witness could have convinced the jury that a malfunction should not make someone a criminal, only intent should be the litmus test.
If this stands, the AR-15 and most other semi-auto firearms (most of which will malfunction in this fashion at some time) will be reclassified. I would suspect that this is the barely hidden agenda in this case.
In the short run, anyone who has experienced a double for any reason could be convicted. Who among us has not experienced this situation?
We need to mobilize to make sure this verdict is overturned if at all possible or we'll all be next (in some order possibly already determined).
Please take a moment to fill in the form at:
CNN.com - Contact Us
to send Lou Dobbs a thank you for being a gun owner, pro gun and
making sure that this kind of story gets out.
Last edited by Golden Dragon; March 15th, 2008 at 06:18 PM.
RO I & II
March 15th, 2008 12:54 AM
March 15th, 2008 02:02 AM
How did the gooberment ever hear about the malfunction? Did the guy who borrowed it work for the BATFE? He was the one who fired 800 rounds through it before it malfunctioned. It seems that the owner didn't 'transfer' a so-called machine gun; rather the other guy 'manufactured' a machine gun by lack of maintenance.
Does the rifle still shoot multiple rounds? If not, I don't think it is a machine gun by the ATF's definition:
If the gun malfunctioned only once, then it is not a weapon which shoots more than one shot, it is not designed to shoot more than one shot, it can not be readily restored to shoot more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
"A machine gun is any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger."
The whole thing is ridiculous, if only for the fact that outlawing machine guns is ridiculous. Hows about we just execute evil people convicted of capital crimes instead of wallowing in this quagmire of irrelevant technicalities? The guy let someone borrow a rifle, for Pete's sake...
March 15th, 2008 10:29 AM
Don't these bafta guys have anything better to do? They must really be hard up for work to pick on a family man with a spotless record for a weapon malfunction. Not to mention he's also got a spotless military record of 16 years. If bafta doesn't have any cases more important than this, perhaps it's time to disolve them. They can be transferred to some other govt. job so they can keep their benefits...the FBI perhaps. Didn't they do any homework on this guy before they kicked his door in and stormed in his house like he was Osama??
"Any rationally thinking person is armed"
---Hinds Co. constable John Lewis
March 15th, 2008 12:19 PM
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force.
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
Our government is increasingly assuming for themselves the role of master, not servant.
March 15th, 2008 12:31 PM
A thought spoken by my closest ally and one with which I fully agree and on with which we should all agree!
On March 18th, the Supreme court will hear arguments for and against an armed citizenry. It will either uphold or overturn a federal court ruling that the D.C. gun ban is unconstitutional. We are all holding our breath because no one knows how the U.S. Supreme Court will decide. When the Constitution says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, does it mean it? When it says that the purpose is a “well-regulated militia”, does that bestow the right on an individual, or on the states? If it bestows the right on the states (because states regulate their own militia, not the federal government), then each state has the absolute right to grant or withhold it, at its own discretion. That has both good and bad points. It means there can be NO federal law infringing, restricting, or qualifying a state-granted right. But the feds are convinced that no one has “the right” to tell it what it can and cannot do, or who it can and cannot restrict. The last time somebody objected to their complete domination of the states, we fought a Civil War. So it will be really interesting (??) to see how the court rules in this case.
If we lose the personal right to keep and bear firearms by this decision, and perhaps the state’s right to grant it, then what you read in the posts here about an Israeli citizen taking action will be unknown in America from that point forward. The private citizen who saved countless lives at New Life Church in Colorado Springs will be a thing of the past. The dozens upon dozens of cases that arise each year of armed citizens taking forceful action to protect life and property in the absence of a police presence will be a thing of the past. And so will the American ideal of citizen-government. The take-over will be complete, and the Leviathan will have won.
Put this one to prayer. If they come for our guns, and there is no resistance, then when they come for our bibles, there will be no resistance either. And the American Experiment will have ended in failure. We will have learned that men will always choose to be ruled rather than to risk ruling themselves – because it’s LESS WORK, LESS EFFORT. We will have become a nation of sheep, like every other nation before us. And that will be a great pity! The thought of what veterans fought for in ever war - including me, bring me to my knees at such a thought. How will we explain to our children and grand-children that we chose to abandon THEIR liberties by our own inaction, laziness, and indifference? It will be the day that the citizen’s right to rule his own government, by force if necessary, passed into history as a vain imagination. God help us all.
Semper Vigilantia - Semper Paratus
NRA Life Member
March 15th, 2008 12:41 PM
Nope; there is nothing we are missing here at all, that is just our BATFE and our rogue US attorneys trying to make a name for themselves at the expense of our brave soldiers who risk themselves in crap holes like Iraq so the rest of us can live free.
I am amazed, however, that the NRA is not screaming bloody murder about this. Not only that, but Wisconsin gun owners really need to start smearing some politicians up there in all of this....
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry
March 15th, 2008 03:25 PM
Does anyone still wonder why we CANNOT trust the government?
The BATF should be a one-stop shopping chain across America, not a government agency...
Stay armed...trust no one...stay safe!
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
March 15th, 2008 06:43 PM
Where are the people/groups who take things like this "to heart"?
Originally Posted by edr9x23super
WHAT is GOING ON?!? Our goverment is doing this WHY?!?
Here's some more info I found on this.....
"STEP 1: A drill instructor in the Wisconsin National Guard named David Olofson loaned a rifle to a student. Olofson had been instructing the student in the use of guns, and the student asked to borrow a rifle for some shooting practice.
STEP 2: The rifle’s manufacturer, Olympic Arms, had been issued a recall notice for that very model in 1986 over an issue of guns inadvertently slipping into full automatic mode, if certain parts were worn or if certain ammunition was used.
STEP 3: The student, Robert Kiernicki, went to a range and fired about 120 rounds. He went to put in another magazine and the rifle shot three times, then jammed. A couple of police officers who also were at the ranged immediately approached him and started asking questions about the “automatic” fire, and he told them it was a borrowed weapon. Mr. Olofson, being a responsible person, went down to the police station and said, ‘I’m in the National Guard. I know what a machine gun looks like. That’s not it.”
STEP 4: Because of the malfunction, the rifle was seized and sent to the Firearm Technology Branch, the testing arm of the federal agency. They examined and test fired the rifle, and then declared it to be ‘just a rifle.’
STEP 5: Special Agent in Charge, Jody Keeku, asked for a re-test and specified that the tests use “soft primered commercial ammunition.” The FTB has no standardized testing procedures, in fact it has no written procedures at all for testing firearms. They had no standard to stick to, and gleefully tried again. The results this time was that this rifle was now a machinegun.
STEP 5: Olofson was not charged with “possession of a machinegun”, but he was charged with “Unlawful transfer of a machinegun.” The student, after being paid “an undisclosed amount of money” for his testimony against Olofson, was not charged with anything. Olofson was later convicted of the “crime”.
SUMMARY: Len Savage, a weaponry expert who runs Historic Arms LLC, said during the trial, “Are you saying if I take my Great Granddaddy’s double barrel out and I pull one trigger and both barrels go off, it’s a machinegun?” U.S. Attorney Greg Hannstad replied with “Any weapon that shoots more than once without manual reloading, per function of the trigger is a machinegun.”
And you wonder why we gun owners are so distrustful of the federal government, the U.S. Attorney’s office, and the BATFE?"
Last edited by goldshellback; March 15th, 2008 at 07:56 PM.
Reason: found more info on this....
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
(Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay
March 15th, 2008 09:08 PM
I still want to know why these Gestapo stormtroopers felt the need to kick in the door on what looks like a 250 thousand dollar house belonging to a man with a spotless record. Am I missing something? Couldn't they just send over a couple of plain clothes agents to knock on the door, explain what happened to the owner and ask for the gun first?? The man is not Pablo Escabar.
"Any rationally thinking person is armed"
---Hinds Co. constable John Lewis
March 16th, 2008 05:58 AM
Every single one of us must become involved in this case. There is not a semi-automatic weapon on the planet that is not capable of this malfunction. If we don't quickly put a stop to this there is no end to the persecution we could "justifyably" face as a result of the precident this trial could set.
I don't know where they found the people who made up this jury, nor do I know where the people of Wisconsin found this prosecutor or the other people in the chain who did not stop this case cold in its tracks. When I heard about this before there had been an arrest, but I expected that the case would easily exhonorate Olofson.
We must all write to every elected official to protest this abuse by the BATF. This is lunacy of the first order and abuse of power on a scale that is without precedent. My letters will be going out tomorrow.
But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
LTC(RET) Dave Grossman
Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook
March 16th, 2008 06:41 AM
first of all , it is unusual to find a news reporter who admits he is a gun owner and believes in the second amendment , and i don't guess the ATF knows what a "slam fire " is ,since they are all so "perfect " they know the charge won't stick , but thats not the point of it , it is just to try to get the AR 15 reclassified as something it is not , so the ATF can confiscate all of them , they are not stupid , theres a plot to it ....
March 16th, 2008 12:09 PM
I just finished writing an email to Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma about this issue. He's a staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment, so I hope he'll take a in depth view of the matter.
I urge everyone else here to do the same. If you have a pro 2A Congressman, write them and make them aware of this issue and what your position is.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. ~ Albert Einstein
Sig P229 DAK - .40 S&W
Ruger SP101 - .357 Mag
March 16th, 2008 11:16 PM
Happened in Wisconsin. Hhmmm, I bet Illinois is jealous.
March 17th, 2008 01:13 PM
Why would anyone on a jury vote to convict? Its one thing for a rogue thug agency to do this but then to have citizens vote to convict?
Nice work by Lou Dobbs...
By DaveH in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
Last Post: July 27th, 2009, 12:30 AM
By Thanis in forum General Firearm Discussion
Last Post: April 8th, 2009, 10:16 AM
By Pro2A in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
Last Post: December 24th, 2008, 08:18 PM
By Booker T. Johnson in forum New Members Introduce Yourself
Last Post: October 30th, 2006, 08:47 AM