ACLU's Definition of "The People"

This is a discussion on ACLU's Definition of "The People" within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Remember these are the one's that are supposed to protect your civil liberties. After all, they defended the right of Nazi's to congregate. ACLU's absurd ...

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Thread: ACLU's Definition of "The People"

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
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    ACLU's Definition of "The People"

    Remember these are the one's that are supposed to protect your civil liberties. After all, they defended the right of Nazi's to congregate.

    ACLU's absurd definition of 'the people'

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    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    "The ACLU argued that the term "the people" should have its definition changed to mean "the state militia," as the ACLU website states under the section "Gun Control":"

    Yep, the ACLU uses a very different intrepretation of "the people" when some
    skinhead or nazi organization wants to parade through a Jewish neighborhood.

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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    I am completely fine with replacing the word 'people' with 'milita' as far as the second admendment goes.

    As long as they are willing to concede the fact that all able bodied men(and women, based on equal rights movement) are part of said militia.

    And if they will agree that I am part of the militia, then I want militia type weapons...rocket launchers, automatic rifles, etc.

    Why can't these people understand that there was no such thing as a 'national guard' or an organized 'reserve' when the 2nd admendment was written?

    Milita/the people were synonymous at the time of the writing. Which is why it is worded in that way. Just because the anti's want to change the meaning of the word 'militia', does not mean they can change what the 2nd admendment meant.

    We have a living language. Unlike languages that are no longer spoken, inventions, progress, and technology necessitate adding meaning to words, or having the word evolve to mean other things.

    This does not in any way give permission to the judges or people in general to change the meaning of a law due to a new interpretation of an existing word.

    I want to know why we don't argue what the exact meaning of 'shall not be infringed' means. I don't believe those words have changed meaning since 1776.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    I am completely fine with replacing the word 'people' with 'milita' as far as the second admendment goes.

    As long as they are willing to concede the fact that all able bodied men(and women, based on equal rights movement) are part of said militia.
    So that means, by YOUR definition, anyone with a disability would not be allowed to have a gun because he or she is not "able bodied." So much for "fair and equal protection under the law." Or maybe some people are more equal than others...

    I believe that you meant well, but that argument leaves a very sour aftertaste.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
    So that means, by YOUR definition, anyone with a disability would not be allowed to have a gun because he or she is not "able bodied." So much for "fair and equal protection under the law." Or maybe some people are more equal than others...

    I believe that you meant well, but that argument leaves a very sour aftertaste.
    You ever notice how few 'disabled' people there were back in those times? Ever since we started letting people get labeled with disabled, it seems to have skyrocketed the amount of 'disabled' people.

    A woman who weighs 600 pounds because of poor choices isn't disabled, she's just fat.

    As far as mentally disabled people, those, too, have skyrocketed. Our current society breeds 'disabled' people.

    But as far as your reply, I'm glad that you chose that part of my post to pay attention to.

    As far as my complete stance on this issue.
    I believe the right to own guns is inherrent. It is not granted by state or federal authority or by the 2nd admendment. It is an ingrained right, that comes with being alive. I believe the same about self defense. It is an ingrained human right to defend your life with force, if necessary.

    I believe the 2nd admendment is about a milita. I believe it was intended to provide a means to fight back against a tyrranical gov't or to fight off a foreign invasion. I believe the 2nd admendment refers to the right of the milita to own weapons that are currently and commonly used for military purposes. I do not believe the 2nd admendment was intended to include everybody, or act as a means to grant or restrict access to weapons. I believe our founding fathers believed that the right to own a weapon was an inherrent God given right and did not need to be specifically mentioned.

    If you look back into the time it was written, everybody did not have equal rights.
    "fair and equal protection under the law."
    That statement did not exist at the time the constitution and Bill of Rights was written, and the Founding Fathers didn't believe in "fair and equal protection under the law."

    Women could not vote, and in many states or territories could not even own property. They didn't have laws to protect handicapped people or to give them equal rights. They didn't have wheelchair ramps. If you wanted to get up some stairs, you had to climb. Things are a lot different now. A handicapped person can actually live and interact in today's society. Although, I don't believe people that had lost an arm or a leg thought they deserved any special consideration during those days. They probably would have shot somebody who dared to call them handicapped, or to imply that they needed 'special attention'.

    You cannot view the constitution in a politically correct manner. It wasn't politically correct, and the founders of this country had no concept of 'politically correct'. If you take offense to that, I'm sorry, if you believe in an afterlife, take it up with them, not me.

    Until then, I'd appreciate it if you would get off your politically correct high horse.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
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    If you look back into the time it was written, everybody did not have equal rights.
    Quote:
    "fair and equal protection under the law."

    That statement did not exist at the time the constitution and Bill of Rights was written, and the Founding Fathers didn't believe in "fair and equal protection under the law."


    What about the "All men are created equal" part of the constitution? I believe if you really study the Constitution, and the Founding Fathers, you'll find they did believe in "fair and equal protection", including women. All were given trials. Yes there were some differences of opinion back then, as now, but over-all the belief in equal treatment under the law was there.

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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    What about the "All men are created equal" part of the constitution? I believe if you really study the Constitution, and the Founding Fathers, you'll find they did believe in "fair and equal protection", including women. All were given trials. Yes there were some differences of opinion back then, as now, but over-all the belief in equal treatment under the law was there.
    It would take a lot of studying of the constitution to find the words "All men are created equal".

    'All men are created equal' was part of the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

    It isn't until the 14th admendment that the constitution begins to talk about equal rights under the law. And the 2nd admendment has yet to be incorporated under the 14th.

    And I was trying to leave slavery out of this, but as far as men, and the definition of 'people', there was obviously a difference in who they considered part of the people.

    The 2nd admendment was worded deliberately to exclude certain people. That is why it starts the way it does.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

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    "All men are created equal"
    Today, it would read "All men, women, womyn, transgendered persons, trans-specied persons, persons who do not wish to be associated with any gender, persons who do not wish to be known as a person, and any other type, class, specification, or individual not enumerated above, are created equal, unless and until any member or group of members of one of the above classes choose to exercise their individual or collective rights not to be equal, and with the full and complete understanding that being born is not, in and of itself, a requirement for this equality (or lack thereof).
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    some spirited responses above...

    I have seen ACLU's stupid opinion before. It amazes me that they consider themselves "protectors of the rights of people".

    Hopefully, they will be eating their words after Heller gets out...
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

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    Senior Member Array Cthulhu's Avatar
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    Sure...as long as they also use that definition for "the people" in the Constitution's preamble.

    Idjits.

    -JT

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    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Today, it would read "All men, women, womyn, transgendered persons, trans-specied persons, persons who do not wish to be associated with any gender, persons who do not wish to be known as a person, and any other type, class, specification, or individual not enumerated above, are created equal, unless and until any member or group of members of one of the above classes choose to exercise their individual or collective rights not to be equal, and with the full and complete understanding that being born is not, in and of itself, a requirement for this equality (or lack thereof).
    So true!!! Our kinder gentler nation!
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

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    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    All men are created equal was part of the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. It isn't until the 14th admendment that the constitution begins to talk about equal rights under the law. And the 2nd admendment has yet to be incorporated under the 14th.

    And I was trying to leave slavery out of this, but as far as men, and the definition of 'people', there was obviously a difference in who they considered part of the people.

    The 2nd admendment was worded deliberately to exclude certain people. That is why it starts the way it does.
    Agreed, the 2nd Amendment was written in that way because some states would not ratify without it being worded as such. Later, just as today, some states started reading the Constitution the way they wanted to. This is also why "the people" was left in the 2nd, to protect that right for all citizens. The main point here should be the understanding that ALL law abiding citizens have this right.

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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    Agreed, the 2nd Amendment was written in that way because some states would not ratify without it being worded as such. Later, just as today, some states started reading the Constitution the way they wanted to. This is also why "the people" was left in the 2nd, to protect that right for all citizens. The main point here should be the understanding that ALL law abiding citizens have this right.
    I'm sorry, I thought your main point was that I should study the constitution before I make any statements...

    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    What about the "All men are created equal" part of the constitution? I believe if you really study the Constitution,
    I take it you have still not found the part in the Constitution where it makes that statement?

    All ribbing aside. You can't take what the constitution says and use it as a banner. It had a very clear meaning and a very clear intent upon it's writing. Maybe they had to word it that way to get it ratified. In fact, I tend to agree. Either way, that is the way it was worded when it was ratified. You can't pick and choose. We get mad at the anti's and liberals when they do it.

    "What is an interpretation of the Constitution, except half way between what it says and what you want it to say."

    When the 2nd admendment was written, it did not apply to everybody. It wasn't supposed to. 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms.' did not mean everybody. It did not apply to Indians, it did not apply to slaves. It applied to the militia. In it's very strict definitition.
    Militia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    To ensure that the militia could not be disarmed, a right of the people to keep and bear arms was recognized in the Second Amendment.[32]

    The first legislation on the subject was The Militia Act of 1792 which provided, in part:

    That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, ... every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock....
    And I agree with you. All law-abiding citizens DO have the right to own arms, but not because of the 2nd admendment.

    Unless you want to redefine what the 2nd admendment says and meant. And then you are guilty of doing the same thing that you were mad at the ACLU for doing.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

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    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    I take it you have still not found the part in the Constitution where it makes that statement?
    O.K., it was the Declaration Of Independence but you have to admit it was a good discussion.

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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    O.K., it was the Declaration Of Independence but you have to admit it was a good discussion.
    Yes, Ronwill, I will admit it was a good discussion. I'll also admit that I am glad D.C.'s lawyer was so unprepared. By reading the transcripts, it almost sounds like he was arguing our side.

    The problem with the anti's arguments, is for them to say, unequivocably, that the 2nd admendment is a right of the militia(which it is), then they have to reach a definition of militia. Which, in our founders time, was the American citizen. At the time the Bill of Rights was written, it applied to protestant, white males. We have now extended our definition of the 'people', so that it would now encompass all citizens.

    With that realization, they woud reach the point where they have to define 'arms'. There is no way to define 'arms' in the context of a militia, without including assault rifles, machine guns, armor piercing rounds, and even rocket launchers.

    Even if the anti's win the argument on the true meaning of the 2nd admendment, they lose. They are caught between a rock and a hard place, so to speak.

    The 2nd admendment referred to an individual right of the 'people' to keep and bear arms, because that was the best way to ensure the survival of a militia.

    We all know the constitution isn't perfect. The people who wrote it knew it wasn't perfect. That is why, even after they finished writing it, they had to add 10 admendments. They knew it would need to be changed and that's why they provided for admendments, and a way to get those admendment's ratified.

    I just wish out gutless judges would stop changing the meaning of the constitution from the bench, and remind our spineless politicians and sleezy lawyers of the correct way to change the constitution...By writing an admendment and seeking ratification.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

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