Wal-Mart is striking a deal with New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg (Merged)

This is a discussion on Wal-Mart is striking a deal with New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg (Merged) within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I understand that some state governments have made it illegal within the state for a gun owner to sell his gun to another person without ...

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Thread: Wal-Mart is striking a deal with New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg (Merged)

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    Federal law and "gun show loophole"

    I understand that some state governments have made it illegal within the state for a gun owner to sell his gun to another person without going through an FFL dealer and doing the background check.

    But I wonder how the Federal government would have the jurisdictional authority to regulate a used gun sale between two individuals within a state? There is no "interstate commerce" involved in such a sale, so normally the Feds would not have control of this.
    Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the Peoples' Liberty's Teeth." - George Washington

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  3. #17
    Member Array samh's Avatar
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    Wal-Mart toughens rules for gun sales

    The Associated Press
    updated 3:43 p.m. PT, Mon., April. 14, 2008
    WASHINGTON - Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest seller of firearms, announced Monday it will toughen rules for gun sales, from storing video of purchases to creating an internal log of which guns they sell that are later used in crimes.

    J.P. Suarez, the chief compliance officer for Wal-Mart Stores Inc., appeared with outspoken gun control advocate Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York to announce the changes at a gathering of Bloomberg’s group Mayors Against Illegal Guns.

    Changes to come at about 1,100 Wal-Mart stores selling guns include:

    Creating a record and alert system to record when a gun sold at Wal-Mart is later used in a crime. If the purchaser of that gun later tries to buy another gun at Wal-Mart, the system would alert the sales clerk of the prior buy and could refuse to make the sale.
    Retaining the recorded images of gun sales in case law enforcement wants to view them later as part of an investigation.
    Expanding background checks of employees who handle guns and expanding inventory controls.
    Suarez said the tougher standards will come with some additional cost to the company.

    “The costs are, we think, part of what it takes to be responsible. Everything is not pain-free,” he said, adding that small sellers can implement many of the same rules. He did not say how long it would take to implement all the changes, but noted that software must still be created for an internal log of guns later used in crimes.

    Suarez said his company may receive some pressure from gun rights groups, but added, “This is not a signal that we’re getting out of firearms.”

    The National Rifle Association denounced the company’s move.

    “I view it as a public relations stunt that stigmatizes law-abiding firearms purchasers exercising their freedom under the Constitution,” said NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre. He said that if politicians were serious about reducing gun crime they would worry less about legal sellers and buyers and get tougher criminal sentences for illegal gun dealers.

    “I honestly think it’s a corporation trying to curry favor with politicians as opposed to doing anything meaningful about stopping crime,” said LaPierre.

    Wal-Mart sells only rifles and shotguns in its U.S. stores, with the exception of Alaska sites, which also sell handguns.

    Bloomberg urged other companies to join Wal-Mart in the initiative called the Responsible Firearms Retailer Partnership.

    “We didn’t pressure them, they’re doing it because they think it’s the responsible thing to do,” he said.

    Wal-Mart, the world’s largest retailer, had previously tried to establish a store in New York City but failed.

    The mayors’ gun summit also unveiled a new lobbying effort to close what they call the “gun show loophole,” which allows sales of firearms without background checks between private individuals at gun shows.

    Bloomberg founded the group two years ago with Boston mayor Thomas Menino to reduce the flow of guns from store displays into the hands of criminals.

    The group, largely funded by Bloomberg’s personal fortune, announced it was spending more than $100,000 on television ads, starting Wednesday, featuring all three of the current main presidential candidates voicing their opposition to the gun show loophole.


    The ads will run in the home states of the three candidates — John McCain of Arizona, Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Barack Obama of Illinois. It also will air across Pennsylvania, which holds its primary next week, as well as Florida, Maryland and Massachusetts.

    The mayors group is trying to gather support in Congress to:

    End the gun show loophole.
    Require gun dealers to perform criminal background checks on all gun-handling employees.
    Close a so-called fire-sale loophole that allows gun dealers whose licenses have been revoked by the government to sell off their inventory without background checks.
    Add those placed on the terrorist no-fly list to the list of people prohibited from purchasing a firearm.
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  4. #18
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    Here's some feedback I just sent to Walmart's corporate office...

    "In regards to your new involvement with the "Responsible Firearms Retailer Partnership" broked by Mr. Bloomberg of NY, I would like to suggest some other changes. Your Compliance Officer, Mr. Suarez, should also look into using the same software and background check information for ANY employee and/or customer who decides to buy any of the following items: Kitchen knives, baseball bats, any form of rope or twine, heavy boots or shoes, any hazardous cleaning chemical, matches and/or lighters, plastic bags, tire irons, pillows, candles, bicycles, hairdryers, pantyhose,... In fact, maybe the company should require these types of safety precautions for almost EVERYTHING that it sells to consumers. If in fact Walmart is serious in it's being responsible for the use or misuse of it's products AFTER they have left the store and there possible use or misuse by individuals, then Walmart should lead the way in securing the images of every customer that purchases any type of "possibly dangerous" product.

    On second thought, I have a much better idea. Instead of spending all this money on this extravagant "Feel-Good" scheme, why doesn't Walmart instead make a donation to their local Police Department in order to be "responsible" for it's own communitty? I'm sure putting the money that would have been spent on this ridiculous idea would be much more useful and appreciatted by the men and women who typically have to do "more" with "less" every budget season. If Walmart really wants to act responsible, there are MUCH better ways to go about it than this useless commitment.

    Think outside of the box here... don't get caught with your head stuck INSIDE it!"

    Best I could do on tired notice...
    Firefighter/EMT
    "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.

    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Rotorflyr's Avatar
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    gddy,
    Damn good for "tired notice"
    I hope more people will take the time to write WallyWorld about how ridiculous this is. (I'm working on my letter now)

    Janq,
    You make some good point's however what Wally is doing goes beyond all that. They are essentially telling people that if a firearm you purchase from them is used in a crime, they likely won't sell you another (doesn't matter if you had nothing to do with said crime) They are also planing on keeping video/still images of everyone who purchases a firearm.
    As mentioned by "gddyup" are they going to do the same for everything they sell that could be used in a crime or to hurt someone?
    If not, why not?

    Ultimately it won't effect me, as I've never bought nor do I ever plan on buying a firearm from them, and in the long run will have about zero effect on crime but it's still bad policy.
    When Guns Are Outlawed, Only Outlaws will have guns

    Just remember, When seconds count help is mere minutes away

    Also remember, When you go to trial by jury you are putting yourself into the hands of 12 people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.

  6. #20
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    Under the group's Responsible Firearms Retailer Partnership, Wal-Mart Stores Inc. will agree to keep certain records.
    If they try to pull this one in Florida, it could get real expensive for Walmart and whomever keeps records plus any government official in on it. It is a felony in the third degree (up to 5 years and $5,000) for an individual to keep records (think Walmart Sporting Good Manager) of a firearms transaction for reasons other that those established by law... and that penalty is per transaction IRRC. Plus any Floridian State worker, Officer or entity can be penalized with up to $5 million dollars AND they are nobody is exempt from possible civil lawsuits.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  7. #21
    Senior Member Array AirForceShooter's Avatar
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    It's a nice press release for Bloomie.
    Wal-Mart, as with all coprorations, has to maintain records for years.
    The 4473's have to be kept on file.
    All gun purchases have to be approved.

    what's different?

    AFS
    Gun control is hitting what you aim at

  8. #22
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    Separate record keeping for their own nefarious interests?
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    I'm wondering if this "agreement" means that Wal-Mart reports to Bloomberg, Mumbles Menino and the other morons running that group??

    Perhaps the records get turned over to them for "prosecution" of what they perceive as "crimes"?

    Are they going to do this for ammo sales too? <not clear from news story I read>

    NO Wal-Marts in MA or NH (TTBOMK) sell guns anymore anyway, but they do sell a boat-load of ammo, as they are cheaper than everyone else.

  10. #24
    Member Array 500Mag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pogo2 View Post
    But I wonder how the Federal government would have the jurisdictional authority to regulate a used gun sale between two individuals within a state? There is no "interstate commerce" involved in such a sale, so normally the Feds would not have control of this.
    Oh sure there is. If I from PA goes to a state where no background check is needed for FTF deals among private individuals then its interstate commerce. At least that's what the gov't will argue and likely win. If they can get a minimum wage passed under interstate commerce they can get anything through.
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    It's taken this to realize what a cancer Wally world is on our country?

    I tossed wally world when they stopped insisting that their products be made in America and started buying everything from China......
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array JohnKelly's Avatar
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    I always have bought my firearms from local gun stores, always have to support them. Ammo and maybe other accessories I'll buy at Meijer, WalMart, where ever - but for the big ticket items I shop local.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirForceShooter View Post
    It's a nice press release for Bloomie.
    Wal-Mart, as with all coprorations, has to maintain records for years.
    The 4473's have to be kept on file.
    All gun purchases have to be approved.

    what's different?

    AFS
    Yep.
    I still fail to see what exactly is different than normal here.

    * Creating a record and alert system to record when a gun sold at Wal-Mart is later used in a crime. If the purchaser of that gun later tries to buy another gun at Wal-Mart, the system would alert the sales clerk of the prior buy and could refuse to make the sale.
    So basically if a Wal-Mart purchased firearm is used in a crime and the cops inquire to/alert Wal-Mart toward as much they will then make an entry in W-M firearms purchase DB against such buyers name to refuse them future firearm purchase servicing.
    That is not a bad thing, if anything it's a good thing. I'd even go so far as to say a smart thing.

    * Retaining the recorded images of gun sales in case law enforcement wants to view them later as part of an investigation.
    This too makes sense, to me.
    They check your DL or where applicable firearms license then run your paperwork (4473) and NICS check you. Upon BATF approval they scan your 4473 form and a copy of your lic. which then becomes an image recorded for archival into perpetuity. Likely they store the combo as a PDF file within their own server systems for easy reference by their DB toward already and long ago Fed required sales tracking, as opposed to keeping in individual stores old school file cabinets and paper docs on hand.
    If I were an FFL that is how I'd do things and doing so would save me money at that over file cabinets and paper filing & long term storage. Again smart, and sensible as well.

    * Expanding background checks of employees who handle guns and expanding inventory controls.
    This too makes sense...
    Just about any Joe, Jerry, or Jane can get a job at Wal-Mart.
    Checking into specific people who specifically handle firearms for sale or purpose of inventory (back end) makes sense so as to prevent those who might have felonies or or other otherwise limiting factors toward gun possession from being charged with handling of firearms including sale at the stores. This makes total sense to me.
    Further inventory control is a no brainer requirement in general muchless toward firearms in specific. One can't have items being sold or worst being carried for free out the back door and later written off as lost inventory. This too to me makes total sense. What gun dealer does not do this? And if there are dealers/FFLS who do not background check their employees or track their firearm, and ammunition, inventories diligently then shame on them. They are just as much our enemy as are criminals and the Brady Group too.

    ...Suarez said the tougher standards will come with some additional cost to the company.
    Of course there will be an initial cost hit to implement these programs in part or full, especially so part 1 with converting over old paper records to digital format and development of the retailers DB to support as much.
    Still though over the long haul they should actually see a cost and loss reduction which ultimately will make them more profitable. As well in working with community police toward items of crime and purchasers who later who prove themselves to have been or acted _criminally_ with said purchase(s) this cooperation and assistance will be beneficial to our police, our citizens, and ultimately us.
    IMHO more gun shops, dealers, and FFLs should do exact same if they have not been doing so already. These measures are not infringing on our freedoms nor are they so called 'nanny govt'. They are nothing more than making use of proper and modern inventory controls, employee background checks (which today most business large and small do anyway!), and purchaser record keeping.

    What is not to like here?
    What is different than what has been going on since ages ago and if not in specific to Wal-Mart as a firearms and ammunition retailer should have been?

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    Reading glasses?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pogo2
    But I wonder how the Federal government would have the jurisdictional authority to regulate a used gun sale between two individuals within a state? There is no "interstate commerce" involved in such a sale, so normally the Feds would not have control of this.


    Quote Originally Posted by 500Mag View Post
    Oh sure there is. If I from PA goes to a state where no background check is needed for FTF deals among private individuals then its interstate commerce. At least that's what the gov't will argue and likely win. If they can get a minimum wage passed under interstate commerce they can get anything through.
    You didn't read my original posting carefully enough. I asked about two individuals, both residents of the same state, conducting a sale and purchase of a used gun within that state. Obviously an out of state person would run afoul of Federal law when he bought the gun and returned to his home state with it. My question concerned a transaction entirely within one state between two state residents.
    Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the Peoples' Liberty's Teeth." - George Washington

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array hudsonvalley's Avatar
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    In a NY Wallmart, they asked to see my pistol license before they sold me some ammo......'It's pistol ammo'...said the educated by the media employee. I had him call a manager and got the box after some talking that I wasn't required, by law, to produce any such thing. 22 ammo was okay.....they are without clue.....
    Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.
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  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    OK, let's look at the logic of this a little differently:

    * Creating a record and alert system to record when a gun sold at Wal-Mart is later used in a crime. If the purchaser of that gun later tries to buy another gun at Wal-Mart, the system would alert the sales clerk of the prior buy and could refuse to make the sale.
    So basically if a Wal-Mart purchased firearm is used in a crime and the cops inquire to/alert Wal-Mart toward as much they will then make an entry in W-M firearms purchase DB against such buyers name to refuse them future firearm purchase servicing.
    That is not a bad thing, if anything it's a good thing. I'd even go so far as to say a smart thing.
    So if "John" buys a gun at Wally World, and a year or two later, someone burglarizes "John's" home and steals the gun. Let's call the thief "Attila". "Attila" uses the stolen gun to rob the local "stop-n-rob" (7-11 or other). Police arrest "Attila".

    Police inquire of BATFE about the recovered gun, then query Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart pulls up their records showing "John" bought the gun. Wal-Mart now flags "John" as an undesirable and forever bans him from buying guns (and maybe ammo) at any Wally World in the US.

    Yup, this will definitely help stop crime!

    NOTE: Police ask for info in an investigation, but they aren't going to then notify Wal-Mart that "John" was also a victim of crime and not the "perp with the gun" who went bad.

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