Reasonable Gun Control - Page 3

Reasonable Gun Control

This is a discussion on Reasonable Gun Control within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; If the government "let's you" do something, then this isn't a right, it's a privilege. The following restrictions are "reasonable gun control" measures: Violent felons ...

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Thread: Reasonable Gun Control

  1. #31
    Member Array Wolf357's Avatar
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    If the government "let's you" do something, then this isn't a right, it's a privilege.

    The following restrictions are "reasonable gun control" measures:

    Violent felons who chose to use firearms to commit their acts of terror should never be allowed to possess firearms.

    Those who have been adjudicated mentally incompetent should never be allowed to possess firearms unless it is later determined they have fully recovered from their mental illness.

    Unsubstantiated knee-jerk opinions based on nothing more than emotional hysteria are hardly "reasonable" and should never be taken seriously by those who were elected to government office. But, sadly, they are, aren't they?
    And Jesus said, "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." (Luke 22:36)

    I am a peaceful man. But I am not a pacifist.


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array DPro.40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    I disagree. Most of the current laws on the books are unconstitutional. Why would we want to enforce these?


    -B
    Again. Back to what is reasonable gun control ? I do agree some of the laws on the books are unconstitutional or imposing to the God given right to self protection. Before we open doors to evaluate the enforsement of current laws, please cite what you feel is conconstitutional so we may have an idea what to discuss. Not all laws are bad. At the end of bantering, we may decide we are both in agreement but are saying it differently. Please define what laws you feel are .unconstitutional. I'm not set in stone.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
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  3. #33
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    I agree convicted felons should not be allowed to own guns, BUT, only felons convicted of a viloent crime.. If someone was convicted of a drug crime years ago, they've turned their life around, is clean with no violence, that person should be allowed to own guns.
    They don't distinquish between violent people and non violent people. If someone gets busted for drugs at the age of 18 , it follows them the rest of their life. Thats absurd.. Yes sometimes after so many years you can apply to get your rights back, but I know someone that wants to do it and it's a headache.

  4. #34
    Member Array firestarplus's Avatar
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    Wolf357, excellent points

    Food for thought: If you have to study and take a written and driving test to drive a car, would the same for a conceal carry permit be out of line? Not necessarily my view but yet seems somewhat reasonable given the importance of knowledge and safety when it comes to guns. Let me cover up first

  5. #35
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPro.40 View Post
    Again. Back to what is reasonable gun control ? I do agree some of the laws on the books are unconstitutional or imposing to the God given right to self protection. Before we open doors to evaluate the enforsement of current laws, please cite what you feel is conconstitutional so we may have an idea what to discuss. Not all laws are bad. At the end of bantering, we may decide we are both in agreement but are saying it differently. Please define what laws you feel are .unconstitutional. I'm not set in stone.
    See this post just before your first one for my comment on constitutional gun control laws. I don't use the word "reasonable", so there's no discussion about what "reasonable gun control" is.

    As for unconstitutional laws, those are easy. At the federal level (which is what we're discussing now), the NFA, the GCA, laws surrounding FFLs, the Brady Bill, and prohibitive restrictions such as those in the District of Columbia. The Second Amendment, being a limit on the powers of the Congress, does not address state laws, so I won't here either except to mention that the topic did come up in Presser v. Illinois and was never satisfactorily resolved.


    -B

  6. #36
    Member Array SCGunGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf357 View Post
    If the government "let's you" do something, then this isn't a right, it's a privilege.

    The following restrictions are "reasonable gun control" measures:

    Violent felons who chose to use firearms to commit their acts of terror should never be allowed to possess firearms.

    Those who have been adjudicated mentally incompetent should never be allowed to possess firearms unless it is later determined they have fully recovered from their mental illness.

    Unsubstantiated knee-jerk opinions based on nothing more than emotional hysteria are hardly "reasonable" and should never be taken seriously by those who were elected to government office. But, sadly, they are, aren't they?
    So, in re: your 1st point, a guy who uses a chainsaw, axe, hammer, tire iron, car, fists, chain, etc., as long as it wasn't a firearm, doesn't have the same penalty? Sorry, I don't buy that we should punish "gun crimes" more than "non-gun crimes", just as I don't think we should punish "hate crimes" more than "non-hate crimes". If you murder, it doesn't matter why or with what you commit the murder.
    Visit my Winchester Ranger Talon page for current pricing.

  7. #37
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    "Reasonable" is in the mind of the beholder. National laws, State laws, City laws...all attempt to clarify/define reasonable...or to large/some, restrict. How you define it, no not matter. It is how the politicians define it...just ask Ohio versus California or Utah U versus VT...

    Rick

  8. #38
    Distinguished Member Array Gunnutty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firestarplus View Post
    Wolf357, excellent points

    Food for thought: If you have to study and take a written and driving test to drive a car, would the same for a conceal carry permit be out of line? Not necessarily my view but yet seems somewhat reasonable given the importance of knowledge and safety when it comes to guns. Let me cover up first
    No need to cover up, I'm not going to flame you. However I think we need to remember that driving a car is a priviledge and owning a gun is a right. Apples to oranges in my opinion.
    We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array bluelineman's Avatar
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    No licensing, no registration. Mail order OK (like in the past, i.e. Sears catalog). Concealed or open carry anywhere (except a jail/prison) without a permit. Training suggested but not required. Non-violent felons OK. Sound suppressors & full auto OK.

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    Laws that do not prevent me, as a U.S. citizen, from keeping and bearing arms as per my constitutionally-recognized right, are reasonable. Examples of which would include:

    • Licensing for certain modes of carry (but not all modes of carry).
    • Prohition of certain modes of carry (but not all modes of carry).
    • Congress outlining minimum training requirements, provided they aren't prohibitive and are publicly funded.
    • States having more stringent training requirements than that which Congress provided ("well-regulated" meant well-disciplined/trained), provided they aren't prohibitive and are publicly funded if state-sponsored and not privately sponsored.
    • Requalifications (see "well-regulated" comment above), provided they aren't prohibitive and are publicly funded if state-sponsored and not privately-sponsored.

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  11. #41
    Member Array Wolf357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCGunGuy View Post
    So, in re: your 1st point, a guy who uses a chainsaw, axe, hammer, tire iron, car, fists, chain, etc., as long as it wasn't a firearm, doesn't have the same penalty? Sorry, I don't buy that we should punish "gun crimes" more than "non-gun crimes", just as I don't think we should punish "hate crimes" more than "non-hate crimes". If you murder, it doesn't matter why or with what you commit the murder.
    You're absolutely right. I should have stipulated the misuse of firearms as one example of many methods used by violent criminals. The key words to emphasize are "violent criminals", not mythical "gun crimes".
    And Jesus said, "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." (Luke 22:36)

    I am a peaceful man. But I am not a pacifist.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array DPro.40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    See this post just before your first one for my comment on constitutional gun control laws. I don't use the word "reasonable", so there's no discussion about what "reasonable gun control" is.

    As for unconstitutional laws, those are easy. At the federal level (which is what we're discussing now), the NFA, the GCA, laws surrounding FFLs, the Brady Bill, and prohibitive restrictions such as those in the District of Columbia. The Second Amendment, being a limit on the powers of the Congress, does not address state laws, so I won't here either except to mention that the topic did come up in Presser v. Illinois and was never satisfactorily resolved.


    -B

    Thanks BAC

    I do not disagree with your post you cited as example.
    As for me, in whole, asking permission to protect myself and my family is "unconstitutional." Its not reasonable gun control law either.To apply to have permission to to this just doesn't make sense and an exercise to the state and local government to maintain control. These select few are attempting to define what society should be, how it should behave. Why aren't felons of violent crimes prosecuted to fullest extent of the law? My definition of an existing laws that would work, if applied. These are the very people, that make it difficult for us to be distinguished from criminals. Rules of society are made of a given set of laws, moral or legal, that one abides by to that create harmony. Those that don't abide make for wards of the state or the federal government. I don't see fighting for the same 2nd admendment rights for the guy who thinks his sister is dating Jesus. A simple observation, if he doesn't have weapon, strengthens our position to protect myself and family. The more he kills, the more we loose. So I do agree to with hold the rights of those who would carelessly take a life to support a crack habit or to take a life for sport. This is the reason I carry. Enforce the current laws to remove the criminal off the street, not to give up further rights of protection for us. That is, if you can call asking permission to protect yourself a right.

    BAC... I don't see removing the people off the street, these very criminals and crazies that we protect ourselves from as a constitutional issue. I see it as a moral issue. An issue that can be addressed by enforcing the current laws.
    I guess we can agree to disagree. I think we are coming at this from two different angles.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
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  13. #43
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Reasonable Gun Control
    There is no such thing. Again---gun control is hitting your target where you want. Plain and simple----I think the term should be banned with all the rest of the non-speakables on this site. It really has no place here.

  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array mr.stuart's Avatar
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    Criminals do not care about gun control

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    The trouble is: gun control is right by whim, privilege by edict. It can be changed on an instant and eliminated the next.

    If history tells us anything, it's that control will be abused. I, too, don't want an irresponsible person next to me carrying a gun. But, the thing of it is, we're passing by criminals with guns all day long, amongst us. Having the good guys carrying can't possibly be any worse than that.

    And there's this, which can't really be ignored. How much of your own liberty are you willing to trade in order to seek out some percentage of the folks you don't want carrying? It's important to realize two things, here: (a) that it's a definite trade, with a loss of liberty; and (b) that it's a guarantee that no such control will ever eliminate a behavior completely, meaning "they" (the ones you don't want carrying) will still be out there to some degree.

    In the end, I don't believe it's reasonable to perpetrate such a filching of liberties from the People. Beyond being criminal, it's simply not necessary. You screw up and harm someone? You should pay for that. You do some real damage? You should be severely penalized. Make it harsh enough, and there's the deterrent. But, to eliminate larger and larger numbers of upstanding folk from being able to protect themselves isn't going to lead to any sort of anti-violence nirvana, because it wholly fails to address the cause of the violence. Instead, it merely increases the likelihood that a criminal is going to have zero resistance during commission of crimes.

    My vote? To turn back the clock 50yrs to when actual crimes were punished, instead of inventing hundreds of statutory crimes. The incentive will be to get training, to engage in safe handling and usage, and to not engage in criminal acts.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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