Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment - a very good read - Page 2

Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment - a very good read

This is a discussion on Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment - a very good read within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by mr.stuart How do you define a liberal?Simply by a persons opinion on the second amendment?Bush?A politician just like the rest.Are all Republicans ...

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Thread: Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment - a very good read

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.stuart View Post
    How do you define a liberal?Simply by a persons opinion on the second amendment?Bush?A politician just like the rest.Are all Republicans great individuals just because they support the 2nd?I really wish we could avoid these sweeping political statements.I believe in the right to own guns and defend ourselves if our lives are in danger.I am also a liberal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great View Post
    personally, I define a modern liberal as one who looks to government control (particularly the federal one) as the first solution to most problems as opposed to letting the individual be the solution.

    I didn't intend to pull out any sweeping political statements in this thread - I just read a great article and wanted to share it.
    An honest answer from me? And I don't intend to get you fired up, but you did ask and open the door. I don't think it's just a second amendment view. I know of liberals who own firearms and will fight for their second amendment rights. I don't believe all republicans are good either. I don't trust either head of that 3-headed snake in our government(Dems, Repubs, Libs). I think labeling one's self as a Democrat, Republican, or Liberal is a cop-out. It's a way to excuse one from thinking for one's self. "So and so congresscritter is a dem, repub or lib and I like their views, therefore I am a dem, lib or repub."

    However, I view "liberals" as they are loosely defined(which means they could be Democrat, Republican, or "liberal" politically) as no better than robbers, thieves, and kings. I take it a step further than most here probably do. I have a tendency to be honest(which usually translates to BLUNT).

    Liberals effectively use the government as a strong-arm to rob from me, whether it be in the form of money, work or effort, and either use it themselves or give it to someone else who didn't earn it and doesn't deserve it. They seem to be under the delusion that some random collective of people have more value than the individual. Sorry, but you asked.

    I value the rights of the individual above all others. These days I consider myself a slave. I produce a good or a value and someone else consumes it. The fruits of my effort is not a collective pool for everyone to dip what they need out.

    Ok...back on topic before I get a nasty-mod-gram in my box.
    Excellent article though.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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  2. #17
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    lib·er·al Pronunciation Key - [lib-er-uhl, lib-ruhl]
    –adjective
    1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
    2. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
    3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.
    4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, esp. as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
    5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, esp. with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.
    6. of or pertaining to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.
    7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.
    8. open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.
    9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.
    10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.
    11. not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal interpretation of a rule.
    12. of, pertaining to, or based on the liberal arts.
    13. of, pertaining to, or befitting a freeman.


    con·serv·a·tive Pronunciation Key [kuhn-sur-vuh-tiv]
    –adjective
    1. disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
    2. cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate.
    3. traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.
    4. (often initial capital letter) of or pertaining to the Conservative party.
    5. (initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Conservative Jews or Conservative Judaism.
    6. having the power or tendency to conserve; preservative.
    7. Mathematics. (of a vector or vector function) having curl equal to zero; irrotational; lamellar.
    –noun
    8. a person who is conservative in principles, actions, habits, etc.
    9. a supporter of conservative political policies.
    10. (initial capital letter) a member of a conservative political party, esp. the Conservative party in Great Britain.
    11. a preservative.

    I am a libearl in the fact I want more personal liberty

    I am conservative in the fact I think there should be some constraints on personal liberty.


    Good article
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    Firstly, I must admit, that I am a (centrist) democrat.

    This was a very well written article. I am obviously, (though probably in the minority of democrats), very pro 2nd amendment. ALL the amendments were put there for a reason, and ratified by all the states (at the time), and congress as well.

    I feel it's wrong to exclude the 2A as a "right-wing" agenda, because it certainly isn't. It's there for all the people.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Courtesy of Wikipedia:

    Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1] and laissez-faire liberalism,[2] or, in much of the world, simply called liberalism) is a doctrine stressing individual freedom and limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, constitutional limitations of government, free markets, and individual freedom from restraint as exemplified in the writings of Adam Smith, Ludwig von Mises, David Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu, Thomas Paine and others.
    Liberalism is the product of the Enlightenment notion that individual people have intrinsic worth, as opposed to classical thinking that treated people merely in classes (peasant or aristocrat, for example). At that time, conservatives were people who held to the traditional class-based political model.

    When the 20th century saw liberal thought evolve towards socialism, the new conservatism became the 19th century liberalism.

    So, at the moment, political ideologies that refer to themselves as "Liberal" would (for the most part) better be called Socialist or Statist (big government, and more worried about "the people" in some abstract sense than as individuals), and so-called Conservatives are really just classical liberals. (And, clearly enough, one can be Statist or classically liberal no matter what one's chosen party is, even though there are obviously some strong correlations.)

    The quoted article, while providing a low dosage of Democrat party talking points, is a very good recitation of classical liberalism, and does a great job of placing the 2A in a proper context. Our Founding Fathers were, to a man, liberals (in that original Enlightenment sense of the word).
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    I'm a liberal, and this really hits the nail on the head.

    I don't understand the idiocy of some (most)(hell, let's be honest: almost all) of my brethren on the issue. It baffles me.

    Very weird, inconsistent thinking. Alice-in-wonderland logic. Weenies.

    But you know, you don't have to try too hard to find some right-wingers who love their bolt-action .270's and their $ 1,100.00 over-and-under bird guns, but who believe that our menacing black rifles have no legitimate purpose and can (should) be outlawed forthwith. Think Zumbo.
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


    Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.

  6. #21
    Member Array TommyGlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.stuart View Post
    How do you define a liberal?Simply by a persons opinion on the second amendment?Bush?A politician just like the rest.Are all Republicans great individuals just because they support the 2nd?I really wish we could avoid these sweeping political statements.I believe in the right to own guns and defend ourselves if our lives are in danger.I am also a liberal.
    A liberal is someone who starts his/her sentences with "Yeah, but what about...?"

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Thanks very much for posting this article. My views fall in line with the classical liberal viewpoint in many regards. I'm still dumbfounded, however, why the ACLU, with whom I agree on many points, views the 2nd Amendment as a collective right.

    I'm also dumbfounded why those who style themselves as "conservatives" or "libertarians" tend to espouse viewpoints that are antithetical to the "less government" concept, particularly when it comes to establishment and privacy issues.

    It's all a matter of who's ox is being gored -- "Orthodoxy is my doxy. Heterodoxy is someone else's doxy."

    Thanks again for the article. I've already passed it on to a number of folks.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodc13 View Post
    I'm also dumbfounded why those who style themselves as "conservatives" or "libertarians" tend to espouse viewpoints that are antithetical to the "less government" concept, particularly when it comes to establishment and privacy issues.
    That is just as baffling to me as lack of 2A support among modern liberals is to the author of that article. It just does not make sense.
    "A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
    Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great View Post
    That is just as baffling to me as lack of 2A support among modern liberals is to the author of that article. It just does not make sense.
    Absolutely! It's why the labels just don't match up with the viewpoints. I mentioned the ACLU. I intended to include modern liberals in that characterization. Thanks for emphasizing it. It DOESN'T make sense!
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array agentmel's Avatar
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    Awesome article.

    In practice, it seems like a lot of people only really care about a few issues. Those who identify as "conservative" hold views of these issues that are similar to the views of "conservatives." A "liberal" is someone who holds views of the issues important to them that is similar to other "liberals." Very few people are probably actually "totally conservative" (whatever that means) or "totally liberal" (whatever that means). We just care a lot about certain issues and have strong opinions.

    Or, in a more naive sense, a conservative is someone who believes the Republican politicians' lies and likes what they hear, while a liberal is someone who believes the Democrat politicians' lies and likes what they hear.

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  11. #26
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    It is a great article. I could do without the Bush Bashing, but the author is on-point throughout most of the article. I just hope the liberals don't listen. Liberals with firearms scare me.
    That's a good one
    Probably they could be "pro 2nd Amendment" when they pass a law banning anything but rubber bullets... Brandy Bunch claims that they "support " the 2nd Amendment, I saw their spokes mouth say this on CSPAN while having a debate with a conceal carry advocate for campus concealed carry... it was sickening because you could tell he was being completely fraudulent.
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  12. #27
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randytulsa2 View Post
    I'm a liberal, and this really hits the nail on the head.

    I don't understand the idiocy of some (most)(hell, let's be honest: almost all) of my brethren on the issue. It baffles me.

    Very weird, inconsistent thinking. Alice-in-wonderland logic. Weenies.

    But you know, you don't have to try too hard to find some right-wingers who love their bolt-action .270's and their $ 1,100.00 over-and-under bird guns, but who believe that our menacing black rifles have no legitimate purpose and can (should) be outlawed forthwith. Think Zumbo.
    Why is it baffling?

    Do you really believe many who call themselves "liberal" and "progressives," who have an interest in a great big Nanny state, really want 'progress?' Something like ending segregation is "progressive" but in no way can disarming, censoring etc because these things go against freedom... IMHO you may as well call most of those "liberal" politicians and media types "Digressives" because their degeneracy is weakening freedom on many levels.

    Looks like they hijacked the word 'progressive.' (It sounds soooo nice and none threatening, like they mean good.)
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR2008 View Post
    Why is it baffling?

    Do you really believe many who call themselves "liberal" and "progressives," who have an interest in a great big Nanny state, really want 'progress?' Something like ending segregation is "progressive" but in no way can disarming, censoring etc because these things go against freedom... IMHO you may as well call most of those "liberal" politicians and media types "Digressives" because their degeneracy is weakening freedom on many levels.

    Looks like they hijacked the word 'progressive.' (It sounds soooo nice and none threatening, like they mean good.)
    Again, it's the problems with the labels. An awful lot of those who claim the sobriquet "conservative" are happy to espouse the "big nanny state" when it comes to privacy, religion, expression, jurisprudence, and a host of other issues. Yet will trumpet their 2A support as indicative of how much they're for individual liberty.

    Sadly, the liberal/progressive side tends to take the opposite tack. They're all for freedom, except when it comes to speech which might (gasp!) offend someone, and the one right which can guarantee all the others, the right to keep and bear arms.

    The labels are thrown around so much as perjoratives that it makes civil discourse problematic. As see (even here on this forum) all too often, it's easier to hurl an epithet than to craft a well-considered statement of one's position.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    "Progressive" is a term coined by liberals in order to avoid being called liberals. Nothing more, nothing less. It has what those who use it to identify themselves prefer to regard as a positive, non-pejorative meaning.

    Liberal though I am I do not use the term to describe myself: I am not going to use euphemisms to describe myself. I am what I am and who I am, and anyone who doesn't like it may politely go pound sand.

    That meaning of "progressive", of course, differs from what I think its dictionary meaning is (I haven't looked it up)- - but no more so than the term "conservative" differs from (at least one) of its liguistic definitions.

    A "conservative" is attempting to "conserve" what? It implies some sort of limitation, but I've never figured out just exactly what it is to which such (a) limitation(s) apply.

    In my (admittedly muddled) mind, the term conservative generally refers to someone who seeks preservation of what we all might refer to as traditional values.

    A "traditionalist" might be more liguistically accurate? A "preservationist", perhaps? Heck, I don't know- or particularly care. I'm not lexiconographer, sociologist, historiographer or demographer.

    A related point here is that to the extent a "liberal" seeks to enlarge the orbit of individual freedom and a "conservative" seeks to preserve traditional values, they are not always (and needn't very often be) in opposition to each other.

    That is especially true when it comes to guns and self-defense....
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


    Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.

  15. #30
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    Well said Randy

    By your above definition I am a Conservative Libearl
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

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