Petition Started to Make Texas an Open Carry State: MERGED

This is a discussion on Petition Started to Make Texas an Open Carry State: MERGED within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by bluelineman Frequently Asked Questions about Texas Concealed Handguns Q: What does concealed mean? Can't I carry my handgun in plain view? A: ...

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Thread: Petition Started to Make Texas an Open Carry State: MERGED

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array McPatrickClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluelineman View Post
    Frequently Asked Questions about Texas Concealed Handguns
    Q: What does concealed mean? Can't I carry my handgun in plain view?
    A: No. The weapon can't be visible, and its presence can't be discernible through ordinary observation.
    I think this ambiguity is reason enough to support open carry in Texas. Who's to say that one LEOs view of what this means is different than yours and your whole week is spoiled.

    However, I still think we make the case not on pragmatics but rather on the basis that the 2nd Amendment is a civil right, given by the powers of the federal government. Thus, Texas is moderating a civic right.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array McPatrickClan's Avatar
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    Over 8,500 signatures from Texas citizens thus far- I wonder how many it will take for the reps in Austin to notice?

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluelineman View Post
    Here's the official scoop...



    PC §46.035.

    UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.


    (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

    As indicated, it is very ambiguous, open to misinterpretation (and abuse), and subject to judgments I care not be made.

    Frequently Asked Questions about Texas Concealed Handguns
    Q: What does concealed mean? Can't I carry my handgun in plain view?
    A: No. The weapon can't be visible, and its presence can't be discernible through ordinary observation.
    Quote Originally Posted by McPatrickClan View Post
    I think this ambiguity is reason enough to support open carry in Texas. Who's to say that one LEOs view of what this means is different than yours and your whole week is spoiled.

    However, I still think we make the case not on pragmatics but rather on the basis that the 2nd Amendment is a civil right, given by the powers of the federal government. Thus, Texas is moderating a civic right.
    Totally agreed, although I personally never see myself in open carry mode.
    Richard

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  5. #34
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    Unlawful carry by a license holder

    Quote Originally Posted by McPatrickClan View Post
    I think this ambiguity is reason enough to support open carry in Texas. Who's to say that one LEOs view of what this means is different than yours and your whole week is spoiled.

    However, I still think we make the case not on pragmatics but rather on the basis that the 2nd Amendment is a civil right, given by the powers of the federal government. Thus, Texas is moderating a civic right.
    In another thread I mentioned the crime statistics Texas must keep on license holders and compare with the general public.

    In 2006 there were, if memory serves correctly, 11 convictions for unlawful carry by a license holder. There were about 250,000 license holders.

    Either we are a very very careful bunch, or the LEOs are using good judgment on minor stuff.

    Also, the comment qualifying that an intentional display means being visible by ordinary observation, may not be "the law."

    If there are any Texas attorneys who know how to research this, it would be interesting to see what case law actually says about what
    "intentional display" really means.

    To me as a layperson, if I have a gun in my front pocket and as I bend over the handle becomes momentarily visible, that is not an intentional display, even though the gun was identifiable by ordinary observation.

    Or, if I wrap a towel around the gun as I put it in a car safe and someone from some angle happens to momentarily notice as I remove the towel and close the safe, that is not intentional display.

    Intentional display is something more-- it is making sure that others know.

    But, words don't mean what they mean when the law is involved; so if someone knows the actual case law, please post it.

    To my mind, the interpretation posted by DPS seems to go beyond what the legislature intended, and if there is no case law, there should at least be an existing AG's opinion.

  6. #35
    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McPatrickClan View Post
    Over 8,500 signatures from Texas citizens thus far- I wonder how many it will take for the reps in Austin to notice?
    Let's see, there are only about 23,508,000 people in Texas, so they have a long way to go before even reaching a single percent...which is about the amount of CHL holders there are in the state. Heck, they don't even have a but a fraction of the Texas hunting population.

    I would hope more people get on board with this and do so sooner rather than later.
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

  7. #36
    Senior Member Array bluelineman's Avatar
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    I would also like to have open carry available mainly so none of us would have to worry about printing or your shirt blowing open.

  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    lawsuit better than petition

    The Heller majority opinion found (on page 22) that the second amendment guarantees "the individual the right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation".

    I see that piece of the Heller decision as a basis for future challenges to any and all OC prohibitions. If someone does not have a CCW permit, he should still be able to bear arms for self defense and the only legal way would then be OC.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluelineman View Post
    I would also like to have open carry available mainly so none of us would have to worry about printing or your shirt blowing open.
    +1 on OC, if for nothing more than not having to worry about printing. I believe that just like anything else though, there is a time and place to CC and to OC. OC'ing all the time would make the sheep and LEO's very nervous. just my .02 worth
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by P7fanatic View Post
    I believe those guys [gang bangers] you're talking about are carrying concealed right now.



    Quote Originally Posted by airbornerangerboogie View Post
    +1 on OC, if for nothing more than not having to worry about printing. I believe that just like anything else though, there is a time and place to CC and to OC. OC'ing all the time would make the sheep and LEO's very nervous. just my .02 worth
    While reading the above comments I was remembering certain people that I know who think nothing about using an elevator in an office building unless it is one of the glass ones where you can see the cables and guides and then they become terrified.

    If the one you can't see is safe than so is the other.
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  11. #40
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    I am one of the happy Texas Petition signers and am hoping something good comes of it. I believe if you are a licensed gun owner, you should have the option to open carry!
    Last edited by JD; June 30th, 2008 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Removed bold font.
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  12. #41
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    I just signed it.

    16589 Signatures Total, not a whole lot of signatures.
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  13. #42
    Member Array airbornerangerboogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picketeer View Post
    I am one of the happy Texas Petition signers and am hoping something good comes of it. I believe if you are a licensed gun owner, you should have the option to open carry!
    I put my name on to, I still have concerns as to how it would be implemented. Everyone has a right to have a gun for self-defense, but there needs to be some kind of "reasonable" proficiency required to walk around with a pistol strapped to your hip in plain sight. Just like Texas has requirements for CCW, maybe we need to build on that. Also how do you tell the Open Carry Qualified from the general run of the mill Mall Warriors? Maybe in this instance a badge of some kind is needed of open carry, kinda like an auto registration sticker on your window?
    “Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.” James Dean
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  14. #43
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airbornerangerboogie View Post
    Maybe in this instance a badge of some kind is needed of open carry, kinda like an auto registration sticker on your window?
    I'm not wearing any badge unless I change careers again and become a LEO.

    I think many people's issue with a proficiency test is that we should not have to do that or even get certified to carry, the founding fathers didn't have licenses to carry; now of course they couldn't really conceal their riffles too well without walking funny.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
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    I spoke with State Rep. Joe Driver last week at his office (my wife works for him) and he's not sure of how if he will support this bill. I think in some states if you have a CHL you must conceal. Joe Driver did say he was going to place a bill up for campus carry .......about time. Any of the Texas instructors or CHL holders that have a idea of what they would like to see introduce to the laws of conceal carry PM me and lets put our heads together.
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  16. #45
    Member Array airbornerangerboogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paco View Post
    I'm not wearing any badge unless I change careers again and become a LEO.

    I think many people's issue with a proficiency test is that we should not have to do that or even get certified to carry, the founding fathers didn't have licenses to carry; now of course they couldn't really conceal their riffles too well without walking funny.
    I know it's a slippery slope I'm on and will probably draw a lot of flack. I have no trouble with a concealed license, because well, it's concealed. Try to imagine though if you will walking into Wally world and 1 in every 10 people has a .45 strapped to their thigh, even the mall ninjas. Now how do you sort the chafe from the wheat, my concern is not that they would shoot off their foot, but I do have problems when they shoot of mine or your's. Nope, posessing a weapon may be a "right", but carrying it safely and sensibley in public is another thing all together. I'd rather we as gun-owners set the requirements and rules than to leave it to the "Brady Bunch" or of course the
    “Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.” James Dean
    Phil (NRA Member and Vietnam Vet)
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