Round 2: We can't legislate it, we'll mandate it

This is a discussion on Round 2: We can't legislate it, we'll mandate it within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Didn't see where Mitchell had posted this article on this forum. Someone please delete, if he has. How gun makers can help us Make firearms ...

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Thread: Round 2: We can't legislate it, we'll mandate it

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Round 2: We can't legislate it, we'll mandate it

    Didn't see where Mitchell had posted this article on this forum. Someone please delete, if he has.
    How gun makers can help us
    Make firearms manufacturers figure out how to reduce the 12,000 shooting deaths each year.
    By Jeffrey Fagan and Stephen D. Sugarman
    June 29, 2008
    This year, about 12,000 Americans will be shot to death. It's a staggering figure, and even though lawmakers have continued to pass gun-control laws to try to bring the number down, they have not significantly reduced the murder rate. Indeed, for the last decade, guns have steadily remained the cause of about two-thirds of all homicides.

    Gun manufacturers insist that these deaths are not their fault, preferring to pin the blame on criminals and irresponsible dealers. They have fiercely resisted even minimal restrictions on sales and have simultaneously washed their hands of responsibility for this "collateral damage."

    On Thursday, the U.S. Supreme Court made the problem a little more difficult to solve, ruling in District of Columbia vs. Heller that the individual's right to bear arms is indeed protected by the 2nd Amendment -- and making it clear that some laws banning guns would have a difficult time passing constitutional muster in the future.

    What is to be done? The conventional regulatory approaches seem to be failing. A more recent strategy, in which victims or municipalities bring lawsuits against gun manufacturers or retailers, seems legally and politically unpromising since the 2005 passage of the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, which shields gun manufacturers from civil liability.

    We propose a new way to prod gun makers to reduce gun deaths, one that would be unlikely to put them out of business or to prevent law-abiding citizens from obtaining guns. By using a strategy known as "performance-based regulation," we would deputize private actors -- the gun makers -- to deal with the negative effects of their products in ways that promote the public good.

    In other words, rather than telling gun makers what to do, performance-based regulation would tell them what outcome they must achieve: Reduce deaths by guns. Companies that achieve the target outcomes might receive large financial bonuses; companies that don't would face severe financial penalties. Put simply, gun makers -- whose products kill even when used as directed -- would have to take responsibility for curbing the consequent public health toll.

    Under our plan, Congress might require gun makers in the aggregate to reduce gun homicides from 12,000 to, say, 7,000 in 10 years, with appropriate interim targets along the way. Individual firms would each have their own targets to meet, based on the extent their guns are currently used in homicides. Or Congress might simply leave it to neutral experts to determine just how much of a numerical reduction should be required -- and how quickly. Either way, the required decline would be substantial.

    How would gun companies go about reducing gun deaths? The main thing to emphasize is that this approach relies on the nimbleness, innovation and experimentation that come from private competition -- rather than on the heavy-handed power of governmental regulation. Gun makers might decide to add trigger locks to their guns, or to work only with dealers who meet certain standards of responsibility. They might withdraw their semiautomatic weapons from the consumer market, or even work hand in hand with local officials to fight gangs and increase youth employment opportunities. Surely they will think up new strategies once they have a legal obligation and financial incentive to take responsibility for the harm their products cause.

    Performance-based regulation leaves it up to them to decide. This is the same outcome-based approach that the No Child Left Behind program takes concerning schools. Through No Child Left Behind, parents and school officials set achievement targets for students, and schools then have to figure out how to meet the targets. Similarly, performance-based regulation is used in a variety of pollution-control schemes and is becoming the preferred global strategy to combat climate change. For example, under pressure from coalitions of environmentalists, scientists and citizens, regulatory bodies are ordering public utilities to sharply cut their carbon emissions. The companies are responsible for designing solutions to best achieve that goal, which could include switching fuels, changing the way they produce electricity, installing scrubbers on smokestacks and so on.

    Sen. Michael D. Enzi (R-Wyo.) has put forward a proposal along the same lines to target tobacco. Typically, anti-smoking organizations lobby Congress to give the Food and Drug Administration regulatory power over cigarette companies, and press locally to increase tobacco taxes, run more government anti-tobacco ads and boost enforcement of bans on sales to minors. Under Enzi's performance-based regulation plan, however, the tobacco companies would simply be told by Congress that they have to cut their customer base by about 50% in 12 years. It would then be up to the companies to figure out how to curtail smoking rates.

    So how exactly might this work in the case of gun makers? For more than half of all gun homicides, law enforcement officials are able to identify the precise type of lethal weapon that was used. From that data, reliable statistical projections can be made to determine each company's approximate share of all homicides. Each company's quotas would be based on the data, and tied to an ever-decreasing number of deaths.

    A more fine-tuned strategy would set different gun-death-reduction quotas based on the specific weapon -- with larger reductions mandated for guns that are more commonly used in homicides.

    The plan might even include a "cap and trade" feature. If some gun makers managed to reduce the gun deaths caused by their product even faster than the rules required, they could sell that excess to other companies.

    If gun makers fail to reach the performance targets, they would face substantial financial penalties that would hike the cost of the guns they make and drive home the huge negative social consequences they now cause.

    Our proposal is not a tax on gun sales. As long as gun companies met their goals, they would pay nothing extra to the government. Indeed, the plan might reward them with bonuses.

    Performance-based regulation is not about the government denying people access to guns. It's not an academic theory about the underlying causes of gun deaths, nor is it a restriction on the right of law-abiding citizens to bear arms. Instead, it is a practical way to align the gun companies' interests with the public interest and, ultimately, to save lives.

    Jeffrey Fagan is a professor of law and public health at Columbia University. Stephen D. Sugarman is a professor of law at UC Berkeley.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,1307373.story

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    VIP Member Array deadeye72's Avatar
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    What idiots.
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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Wow, it's just like an organization like that to set goals that are unachievable and in the same sentence say that they don't know how they can be achieved but we'll make somebody else figure it out...

    Seems like I've read that line of reasoning somewhere...Oh, well, who is John Galt?
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Oh, and I thought these guys were gonna be irrational...
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    Senior Member Array cmidkiff's Avatar
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    Hey... Let's apply the same criteria to our Automotive Industry! At roughly 50,000 deaths (and a far larger number of serious injuries), we could reduce human suffering even more!

    As long as we're applying this type of system, we should consider abortion, as well. Heck, that number is somewhere around a million and a half deaths per year!

    Suppose we use that 'cap and trade' idea, and let gun manufacturers credit their accounts each time a law abiding citizen or law enforcement officer successfully defends their life with a firearm? What do you know... all of a sudden we have a surplus!

    That 12,000/year number includes legal self defense, suicide, police officer shootings, warfare among gang members and drug dealers... If we limit those to just accidental deaths by firearm, then the number is somewhere less than 800 per year... Far more people are killed by falling down, drowning, medical malpractice, and many other causes than by firearms. Why are we discussing this again?

    What an idiot.
    Liberty is an inherently offensive lifestyle. Living in a free society guarantees that each one of us will see our most cherished principles and beliefs questioned and in some cases mocked. It's worth it.

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    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Don't forget swimming pool and bicycle manufacturers, Those selfish ******** kill more kids every year than guns do.
    Spend few minutes learning about my journey from Zero to Athlete in this mini documentary!
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    Member Array Raider39a's Avatar
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    UC-B and Columbia professors ... bastions of elitists, left leaning institutions - where they are from pretty much says it all. Logic doesn't really apply to their because alcohol and automobiles kill more people than Guns. We don't litigate the makers of these products for their "ill effects" of our society at large.

    it also doesn't matter to them that the 2A is a constitutionally protected, individual right of the citizenry.
    "embrace the suck" - our warriors in the sandbox... it implies that do the best you can in impossible conditions.
    "no plan survives intact upon contact with the enemy" - wisdom of the Grunts.

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Next thing congress will mandate we all come up with new inventions by 2010 to solve world hunger.
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    Member Array 500Mag's Avatar
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    Seriously, when will stupidity be banned?
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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    Distinguished Member Array sniper58's Avatar
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    Here's a concept NOBODY wants to put forth: reduce crime, make convicted criminals serve their FULL sentences and use the death penalty when appropriate. Put the blame where it belongs: on the criminal element not the law-abiding citizenry.
    Tim
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    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    I wonder what this country would be like if knuckleheads like this would take that energy and, oh I dunno, focus it on topics like energy, illegal immigration, the tax code, maybe even for grins, reduce corruption in the Govt.

    Please forgive me for using common sense here, but I think that since less guns are involved in deaths per year than cars and pools, etc. that they could do some good where good needs to be done.

    Allow law abiding citizens to arm themselves again and through attrition the problem will begin to solve itself.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by sniper58 View Post
    Here's a concept NOBODY wants to put forth: reduce crime, make convicted criminals serve their FULL sentences and use the death penalty when appropriate. Put the blame where it belongs: on the criminal element not the law-abiding citizenry.
    Hear! Hear!
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    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    here's another novel idea:

    lets try bringing moral teachings back into our schools; Prayer to GOD back as well. While we are at it, bring back corporal punishment too.

    At home, lets start teaching our kids right from wrong. Tell our deadbeat dads to own up to their responsibilities and be fathers, not delinquent drunkards.

    And lets put a stop to raising "girly men". lets raise our boys to grow up espousing the traditional values of honor, truth and civic duty. No more body piercings, "tats" or other bodily decorations celebrating their "individuality".

    And back to the home front, we can really sit down and monitor what is on TV; ban stations like MTV and VH1 from our homes and our lifestyle. They have no place whatsoever in a society with a moral compass.

    And when we see morally reprehensible people on the street, run them out of town and back into the closet.

    Then, perhaps we can turn the tide in about 20 years or so on all of this violence. In the time of my grandfathers, they did not kill each other over pairs of shoes, or television sets.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    here's another novel idea:

    lets try bringing moral teachings back into our schools; Prayer to GOD back as well. While we are at it, bring back corporal punishment too.

    At home, lets start teaching our kids right from wrong. Tell our deadbeat dads to own up to their responsibilities and be fathers, not delinquent drunkards.

    And lets put a stop to raising "girly men". lets raise our boys to grow up espousing the traditional values of honor, truth and civic duty. No more body piercings, "tats" or other bodily decorations celebrating their "individuality".

    And back to the home front, we can really sit down and monitor what is on TV; ban stations like MTV and VH1 from our homes and our lifestyle. They have no place whatsoever in a society with a moral compass.

    And when we see morally reprehensible people on the street, run them out of town and back into the closet.

    Then, perhaps we can turn the tide in about 20 years or so on all of this violence. In the time of my grandfathers, they did not kill each other over pairs of shoes, or television sets.
    GASP! How dare you...

    Wait a minute, I agree 100% with you.

    FYI, here is a great book that some may enjoy. It is called "Raising a Modern Day Knight" and they now have a neat site with great materials just for what you were describing (Raising a Modern Day Knight :: Fatherhood, A Noble Calling).
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    here's another novel idea:

    lets try bringing moral teachings back into our schools; Prayer to GOD back as well. While we are at it, bring back corporal punishment too.

    At home, lets start teaching our kids right from wrong. Tell our deadbeat dads to own up to their responsibilities and be fathers, not delinquent drunkards.

    And lets put a stop to raising "girly men". lets raise our boys to grow up espousing the traditional values of honor, truth and civic duty. No more body piercings, "tats" or other bodily decorations celebrating their "individuality".

    And back to the home front, we can really sit down and monitor what is on TV; ban stations like MTV and VH1 from our homes and our lifestyle. They have no place whatsoever in a society with a moral compass.

    And when we see morally reprehensible people on the street, run them out of town and back into the closet.

    Then, perhaps we can turn the tide in about 20 years or so on all of this violence. In the time of my grandfathers, they did not kill each other over pairs of shoes, or television sets.
    Yeah, now that SCOTUS has at least recognized the 2nd Amendment, let's see if we can trash the 1st Amendment. What an absolutely brilliant idea. . .
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

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