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Floridians: Federal judge upholds guns-at-work law: MERGED

2K views 29 replies 18 participants last post by  Rock and Glock 
#1 ·
Federal judge upholds guns-at-work law -- OrlandoSentinel.com

OrlandoSentinel.com
Federal judge upholds guns-at-work law

Aaron Deslatte

Sentinel Staff Writer

8:35 AM EDT, July 29, 2008

A federal judge has dealt a major defeat to Florida's business lobby by upholding the main thrust of a new law allowing employees with concealed weapons permits to take their guns to work.

The so called "guns-at-work" law was the product of a three-year constitutional clash that pitted the powerful National Rifle Association against equally influential business groups over two basic constitutional concepts: the right of private property and the right to bear arms.

Lawmakers last spring split the difference and passed a watered-down bill that only allowed employees with concealed-weapons permits to store their weapons in the glove-compartment of their vehicles. But companies like Walt Disney have claimed they are exempt from the law.

Late last month, Disney World Vice President of Public Affairs Shannon McAleavey advised other company executives in a memo that, with a few exceptions, "this law does not apply to Walt Disney World Co. owned and leased properties" because of language in the law that creates an exception for companies whose primary business is to manufacture, use, store or transport explosives regulated under federal law.

U.S. District Judge Robert Hinkle said at a public hearing last month that the law was poorly drafted and "stupid," but he announced in his 39-page order late Monday that Floridians with concealed weapons permits had the right to take their guns to work and leave them locked in their vehicles.

However, he ruled the new law was unconstitutional "to the extent it compels some businesses but not others--with no rational basis for the distinction--to allow a customer to secure a gun in a vehicle."

Hinkle granted the Florida Chamber of Commerce's request for a preliminary injunction barring enforcement of that part of the law.

Chamber legislative counsel Adam Babington said the ruling potentially "causes more confusion than it solves" because it would seemingly prevent someone who carries a concealed weapon in the car from stopping at any business other than where they work.

"This essentiallly says you can take your gun to work and you can drive on the public streets, but you're not entitled to take your gun anywhere else," Babington said.

NRA lobbyist Marion Hammer said Tuesday morning they were also still reviewing the order.

Sen. Durell Peaden, a Crestview Republican who helped draft the law, said he mildly surprised by the ruling but expects business groups to appeal the decision.

"This is just the beginning of the process," he said.

Copyright © 2008, Orlando Sentinel
 
#3 ·
Still kind of confusing... what a quagmire!
 
#7 ·
It seems that the legislators tried to write in some exceptions for some "special friends," and the judge isn't having it...equal protection of the laws and so forth?
 
#8 ·
What's the difference between an employee and a visitor to Disney world. Both are humans. I could see if Disney wanted no guns at all but to bar only employees from having guns in their cars is just plain wrong and stupid. As I said before, if my employer can protect me on my way to and from work then I might consider not carrying to work.
 
#10 ·
JACKSONVILLE, Fla.—Employees with concealed weapons permits can keep guns locked in their cars at work in Florida, but businesses are allowed to prohibit customers from bringing firearms on their property, a federal judge has ruled.


So based on this ruling

I can take legally my Handgun to the ONE (SINGLE) Place I may work
But CANNOT take it to the thousands of businesses I may be a patron of if they say no guns for customers?

Theoretically this actually ends conceal carry in FL if businesses enforce the ruling

I don't know how FL Gun owners can call this a "Victory"
 
#11 ·
So based on this ruling

I can take legally my Handgun to the ONE (SINGLE) Place I may work
But CANNOT take it to the thousands of businesses I may be a patron of if they say no guns for customers?

Theoretically this actually ends conceal carry in FL if businesses enforce the ruling

I don't know how FL Gun owners can call this a "Victory"
This bill does not override the existing gun laws we have. This just covers employees who want to have their guns in the parking lot of of their job and not be fired for it. The employer can fire you for anything they want but just not for having your gun in your car.
 
#13 ·
Chamber legislative counsel Adam Babington said the ruling potentially "causes more confusion than it solves" because it would seemingly prevent someone who carries a concealed weapon in the car from stopping at any business other than where they work.

"This essentiallly says you can take your gun to work and you can drive on the public streets, but you're not entitled to take your gun anywhere else," Babington said.
As I read this, this seems to be Adam Babington's interpretation. I would have to read the judge's ruling directly to see if that's what he said.
 
#14 ·
I'm so glad I live in New Mexico where we have extended dominion. My vehicle is considered an extension of my home. Anything I can legally keep in my house, I may keep in my car, regardless of what big business thinks.
 
#15 ·
yeah I am trying to locate the ruling verbatim too
but don't just trust the Orlando Sentinel version posted here

I have been looking, and several news organizations report
that the judge ruled in Favor of Workers but against Customers bringing guns

I repeat if this is true it is not Good

According to Judge Hinkle, "First, the state may compel a business to allow a gun to be secured in a vehicle in the parking lot. Second, the statute is valid to the extent it compels a Florida business to allow a worker — if he or she has a permit to carry a concealed weapon—to secure a gun in a vehicle in a parking lot. Third, the statute is unconstitutional to the extent it compels some businesses but not others — with no rational basis for the distinction—to allow a customer to secure a gun in a vehicle. Fourth, the plaintiffs have met the prerequisites to entry of a preliminary injunction barring enforcement of the unconstitutional portions of the statute."
 
#16 ·
As I see it, the judge should keep his opinion to legal precedence and refrain from spouting off on his personal opinions.

IMHO, the bottom line is this: No person, corporate entity or governmental body who owns or governs over a piece or parcel of property can choose to ignore or refute the US Constitution within those boundaries. The 2nd Amendment is good border to border, coast to coast, with the exceptions that have been duly and legally established through the Supreme Court's recent ruling.
 
#18 ·
OK Tim Whatever you say
But the Florida Chamber of Commerce and Florida Retail Federation
are looking to push back as far as they can

this ruling is going to be exploited just watch

the real world can change pretty quickly

Whenever someone says "it can't happen here" thats usually the first indication that it really can
 
#19 ·
I think they are just trying to take him out of context. What are they going to do? Put up no guns signs, LOL? Whenever I walk by one, I think of what a nice little group I could put on such a nice little target *rolls eyes*.
 
#20 ·
Signs in FL mean nothing...:hand1:

Stay armed...it must be concealed:yup:...stay safe!
 
#21 ·
Bingo! The court decission forbids a customer from leaving a gun in the car but not to carry it concealed... so don't leave it in the car where it would do you no good anyway and carry it concealed!

The Judge complained that the law was stupid but his decision ain't to bright either!
 
#23 ·
Thanks Emahevul for the file.

OK, This judge is not the brightest and possibly dumb as bricks. I caught this already in page 4.

The restrictions on gun possession by the general public that were in effect
prior to July 1, 2008, and that remain in effect after adoption of the statute at issue, may be roughly summarized as follows. First, there are some kinds of guns, including, for example, machine guns, that a person may not possess at all. See,e.g., Fla. Stat. § 790.221.1
But 790.221 reads:

790.221 Possession of short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or machine gun; penalty.--

(1) It is unlawful for any person to own or to have in his or her care, custody, possession, or control any short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or machine gun which is, or may readily be made, operable; but this section shall not apply to antique firearms.

(2) A person who violates this section commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3) Firearms in violation hereof which are lawfully owned and possessed under provisions of federal law are excepted.
And since you cannot legally own a machine gun without going through the federal hoops....
 
#25 ·
Ok, believe it or not I read the whole file. IANAL but the way I read it is that we won big and big business won one small section mostly due to the law not treating business equally as prohibiting customers locking their guns in their cars. The judge may complain that the law was badly written but I think it was done on purpose but outreached on the parking lot & customer thing.
The way I see it, the law ties the hands of business owners about guns in cars if they have at least one employee with a CWP but since the Employer cannot ask an employee or legally search the vehicle, it makes the business owner think that by deafult at least consider that one employee has a permit thus must remain mum and quiet about enforcing a Gun Free Zone.
OSHA does not apply since the US Congress did not give it a mandate over the States. Even more, Congress told (under OSHA) the states that they are the ones responsible to enact laws for the protection of his employees.
The whole document is a bit convoluted, but I'd recommend Floridians to read it.
 
#26 ·
Florida Law: Employeers versus Employees

Florida Firms Fight to
Keep Gun-Free Workplace
State Law Allows
Workers to Carry
Weapons in Cars
By DAN SLATER
August 18, 2008; Page A3


Several major Florida employers are trying to get around a law allowing workers to keep guns in their cars, even as a June U.S. Supreme Court ruling supporting the right to keep handguns at home has emboldened national gun-rights lobbyists.

Shortly after Gov. Charlie Crist signed into law a bill that says businesses must allow employees with concealed-weapons permits to keep guns in their cars in company lots, Walt Disney World Co. told employees it would stick to its no-guns policy. Disney claimed an exemption for employers who have a permit "to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in explosive materials" -- in this case, the fireworks the company uses nightly to brighten the skies over four of its Florida theme parks. The company is a unit of Walt Disney Co.

At least three other businesses in Florida -- NBC Universal's Universal Studios in Orlando, the Jacksonville electric authority, and a toilet-paper plant owned by Georgia-Pacific LLC -- also surprised the law's supporters when they, too, claimed to be a gun-free workplace due to a variety of exemptions to the new law, which took effect July 1. The Florida Attorney General said Friday that Disney's exemption complies with the new law and the office is in discussion with the other businesses. NBC Universal is a unit of General Electric Co.

The fight over carrying concealed weapons has intensified in some states since the Supreme Court ruling on handguns in the home. The court didn't address where guns might be carried.

Now, employers across the country are facing new dilemmas about how and when to allow weapons on company property, as they try to balance the Second Amendment rights of their employees with federal laws requiring them to provide a safe workplace. In some instances, the business community finds itself at odds with the goals of the powerful gun lobby.

Florida is one of at least nine states to pass legislation allowing people to bring guns to workplace parking lots. This year, the Harrold, Texas, school district will allow employees who have licenses to bring concealed firearms onto campuses, saying they were needed to protect against school shootings.

Other states are facing legal battles over their guns laws. In Georgia, a gun-rights advocacy group is suing to stop the state from enforcing a gun ban at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport.

The current debate over guns at the workplace began in 2002 when Weyerhaeuser Co. used search dogs to find drugs parked in vehicles at its Valliant, Okla., paper mill and in the process found 12 cars containing guns in violation of a company policy prohibiting firearms. Several employees were fired, galvanizing support among gun-rights advocates for laws expressly permitting licensed owners to keep their weapons in their cars while at work. A spokeswoman for Weyerhaeuser declined to comment.

Two years later, Oklahoma lawmakers barred employers from prohibiting "any person, except a convicted felon" from bringing a gun to work. Last year, a federal judge struck down the law, saying that it violated federal guidelines put out by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, which is charged with preventing work-related injuries. The state is appealing.

Personal protection is at the heart of Florida's guns-at-work law, says Republican representative Thad Altman, who voted for the bill. "A lot of women who carry firearms for personal protection want to be able to carry that firearm from, say, a dangerous apartment complex to their cars, and then back again at night," he said, citing a recent crime spree near Orlando. "If they can't have the firearm locked in their car at work, then they can't carry it for personal protection either."

Prior to the new legislation, Walt Disney World had a no-guns policy. In 2006, Disney fired a married couple for bringing a gun to work; they said they kept a gun in their car after being victims of a road-rage attack.

After the new law went into effect, Disney claimed the law didn't apply to it, frustrating the law's supporters. Wayne La Pierre, chief executive of the National Rifle Association, says the exemptions claimed by Disney and other Florida businesses are forcing employees to make "a Hobson's choice" between their job and personal protection. "When they're driving home at 2 a.m., Mickey Mouse isn't there to protect those people."

One former Disney employee believes that choice is unjust -- and was willing to stake his job on it. Edwin Sotomayor, a security guard who worked, most recently, in the Animal Kingdom, defied Disney by bringing his pistol to work on July 4, three days after the law took effect. Authorities met Mr. Sotomayor in the lot, and he was later fired. Now he is suing Disney to get his job back. Mr. Sotomayor and his lawyer declined to comment.

A spokeswoman for Disney says, "We believe that the exemption is clear. And we continue to maintain our policy against guns and workplace violence."

Critics say the new law increases the risk of workplace violence by making a gun available to an irate worker. Moreover, critics argue, the guns-at-work legislation provides no offsetting safety benefits because a law-abiding employee wouldn't have time, in the event of an assault in the parking lot, to access a gun locked inside a car.


What ya'll think?
 
#30 ·
Thanks. I did a quick search and didn't find it. The last post in that thread was July 1. This is August 18. Gee, it even hit two pages. Quite a very long thread as you say. I thought it merited a post regardless inasmuch as it was the Wall Street Journal, and an update to boot.

And yes, I have been under a rock or out of the country now that you ask.
 
#29 ·
So with this modification, does the originally 'fired' employee get his job back?:boese51::rant:
 
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