MN permit renewals down...(Merged)
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Minnesota coming up on 5 years of issuing permits to carry. St. Paul Pioneer Press reports renewals are down in which they list possible ...
November 24th, 2008 05:40 PM
MN permit renewals down...(Merged)
Minnesota coming up on 5 years of issuing permits to carry. St. Paul Pioneer Press reports renewals are down in which they list possible causes.
I agree with some of the reason's given, however, I also wonder if some are not renewing their MN permit since many other states (namely Utah) have reciprocity and allow carrying in many more states. Plus it is much cheaper to renew ($10 vs. $75 and classroom refresher course).
Personally, now that I am also a Utah CCW permit holder, I don't think I'm going to renew my MN permit.
Just wondering thoughts on this....Do many of you carry permits other then your home state as primary?
Last edited by duerrs; November 24th, 2008 at 05:42 PM.
Reason: Adding Link
November 24th, 2008 05:53 PM
I would renew in case reciprocity changes and then you could be screwed
"When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty."
--Thomas Jefferson --
November 24th, 2008 05:58 PM
It's always good to support your state, and give them the support they need to keep thier CCW programs running.
Originally Posted by duerrs
November 24th, 2008 06:07 PM
I am actually quoted in this article. I agree with you "duerrs' some folks are getting a permit that has reciprocity with MN. Also some folks have moved away. I find that about 75% of the classes I have done recently are renewal's and also done at the very last minute. In-other-words they forget and run around at the last minute trying to find a class. For some it is economic in these hard times. Also our good folks in LE are not always the best at maintaining and reporting the facts I have found.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
Utah Permit Certified Instructor
November 24th, 2008 06:09 PM
I'd renew my home state permit.
Many states, including my own, are going the route of only recognizing permits issued by the state in which you reside.
An armed populace are called citizens.
An unarmed populace are called subjects.
November 24th, 2008 06:54 PM
What happens to your license if the reciprocity is dropped? I'd get my home state.
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
November 24th, 2008 08:26 PM
A taste of things to come?
ExSoldier's note: If you can't ban 'em, or tax 'em to extinction (who says? Not the Big "O") the next best thing is a mountain of paperwork and higher costs to deter gun owners.
Gun law's one sure outcome: paperwork
Permit-to-carry turns 5 with crime steady, many permits not renewed
By Frederick Melo
Updated: 11/24/2008 09:53:19 AM CST
Gun enthusiasts said it would deter crime. Gun-control advocates said the measure would increase it, spawning needless deaths.
But Minnesota's permit-to-carry handgun law appears to have done neither, according to an analysis of state crime statistics. Instead, it has accomplished something else entirely in the five years since it was enacted: It's kept clerks at sheriffs' offices hopping busy with paperwork.
In anticipation of the five-year renewal deadline, the Dakota County sheriff's office added a second clerk to handle permit applications and background checks for residents who wish to carry their guns in public.
But the rush hasn't been as heavy as expected.
New applications are still brisk; renewals, not so much. In fact, with the first reapplication deadline in effect this year, only about half the new permit-holders from 2003 appear to have reapplied across the metro area.
The right to bear arms, it seems, can be a big load — both on the wallet and on the wardrobe.
"My sense is that a lot of people went out and got the permit for the first time, but they realized that, one, carrying a weapon is heavy. It's burdensome, especially in plain clothes," said Chief Deputy David Bellows of the Dakota County sheriff's office.
"I wear a weapon in plain clothes many times, and it tears up my sports coats. During the summer, when you're wearing lighter clothing, it's even more difficult to conceal," Bellows said.
A second possible factor for the decline in renewals? The $75 fee.
"Let's face it — if you've got to buy groceries or buy a gun permit, most people are going to say, hey, buying groceries is a little more important," Bellows said. "People are that strapped."
Then there's a third possible factor: Many permit holders simply may have forgotten to reapply.
Enacted by the Legislature in 2003, the permit-to-carry law (sometimes referred to as conceal-carry) upended what had been a long tradition of allowing local law enforcement officials broad discretion in determining who should be allowed to carry a handgun in public. The law adopts a "shall issue" philosophy that assumes an applicant is qualified unless authorities can prove otherwise.
From the moment an application is received, the clock is ticking. Sheriffs' offices have 30 days to show there's basis to deny a permit, or one is automatically granted. The decision rests on a 10-point background check that takes into account firearms training and criminal and mental health history.
For renewals, the law requires a refresher course in the rights and obligations of handgun owners, as well as practice time on the range.
As of Dec. 31, 2007, just more than 51,300 permits had been
issued — about half as many as some opponents and supporters had projected. Statewide, a fifth of the 416 permit denials, suspensions, revocations and voids that took place in 2007 were appealed and reversed.
Other predictions also have fallen by the wayside. Rather than go up or down dramatically since the law's passage, the overall numbers of violent crimes reported to police have shown mild upticks or little evidence of change, according to data from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and the Minnesota Department of Health.
Tallies for gun crimes are mixed.
The numbers of murders, accidental deaths and suicides involving firearms have stayed fairly constant for years; assaults and accidental injuries involving guns have increased. But so has the size of the general population, especially in the metro area.
"Gun injuries have (grown) in the last five years," said Sue Fust, executive director of Citizens for a Safer Minnesota, a St. Paul-based gun control group. "We can't make any causal claims, but it is a fact."
Minnesota Department of Health epidemiologist Jon Roesler said gun violence was on the rise before 2003, as were violent assaults not involving guns. A large share of the increase in gun assaults has occurred in the metro area, with Hennepin County — and specifically Minneapolis — being a hotspot. A disproportionate number involve males ages 15 to 29.
"The question comes up — do we want to link this to 'carry and conceal'?" Roesler said. "I don't know, but my hypothesis is, (the demographics) look different. ... I have a suspicion most of these permits are obtained by middle-aged men."
Peter Bergstrom, a past president of the Dakota County Gun Club, is skeptical that any increases in assaults can be traced back to the permit-to-carry law.
"Everybody was all upset when they passed the law five years ago — 'There's going to be shootouts!' — and it never happened," Bergstrom said.
"Typically, people who have conceal-carry permits are good citizens," Bergstrom said. "They don't cause trouble. If you're going to the trouble of taking a class and filing for a permit, you're following the law."
In Dakota County, the sheriff's office received more than 1,100 permit-to-carry applications in the last six months of 2003, when the law took effect. The numbers of new applications plummeted to half that the following year while the law was in repeal but have climbed fairly steadily since, with an estimated 900 new applications expected in 2008. Renewals are projected to number 600 for the year.
Inspector Ken Schilling of the Hennepin County sheriff's office said those results are fairly reflective of what his office has experienced.
"We certainly anticipated more, just because of the volume in 2003," Schilling said. "It could be the fad has worn off for some people, maybe. Or they realize it's more a burden than it's worth, carrying a concealed weapon. ... There's certainly responsibility that comes with a weapon."
Some officials believe permit holders are missing the renewal cutoff — five years and 30 days from the date of issue — and being counted as new applicants.
Bob Rodke, a Woodbury firearms instructor and member of the Oakdale Gun Club, said he oversaw six students recently in a refresher course. Of them, four had missed the deadline.
"All of a sudden, people wake up and realize, 'hey, wait a minute, my permit ran out,' " Rodke said. For many, that's a $25 loss: the renewal fee is, at maximum, $75, while new applications cost up to $100.
John Monson, owner of Bill's Gun Shop and Range stores in Circle Pines and Robbinsdale, said many gun enthusiasts were too cash-strapped this summer to concern themselves. Many had filed for the permit in 2003 for philosophical reasons, as opposed to practical ones.
"There's a percentage of people who wanted to do it because it's their civil right. They wanted to do it because they could," Monson said. "But they really never had any intention of carrying a firearm. ... It was a new thing that they couldn't have (before)."
Nevertheless, Monson and other firearms safety instructors said their renewal classes have been well attended. Joe DeSua, an instructor from Apple Valley, said he asks all his students why they want a permit.
"The vast majority of the (responses) are: 'It's my right. I want to be able to exercise my right to self-protection,' " DeSua said. "I don't think that the vast majority of them are carrying a gun 24/7."
Frederick Melo can be reached at 651-228-2172.
BY THE NUMBERS
Has the 2003 Permit-to-Carry Law increased gun violence? Decide for yourself.
Homicides involving handguns showed no discernible change, according to data from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. They numbered 62 in 2000; 62 in 2003; and 64 in 2007.
ACCIDENTAL DEATH FLAT
Accidental deaths followed a similar pattern. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported 7 unintentional firearm deaths in 2000; 8 in 2003; and 9 in 2005.
ACCIDENTAL INJURY UP
Unintentional injuries involving firearms showed a stronger upward trend. They numbered 279 in 2000; 340 in 2003; and 402 in 2006, according to patient discharge data from the Minnesota Department of Health.
State Bureau of Criminal Apprehension data on aggravated assaults involving guns showed increases as well. They numbered 1,240 incidents in 2000; grew to 1,316 in 2003; and rose to 1,477 in 2007. Patient discharge data show a similar trend, with assaults involving firearms accounting for 158 hospitalizations in 2000; 278 in 2003; and 395 in 2006.
The CDC reported 223 suicides by firearm in Minnesota in 2000; 244 in 2003; and 255 in 2005.
SOURCES: Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension; Minnesota Department of Health; National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, CD
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
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