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2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type)

9K views 143 replies 29 participants last post by  taseal 
#1 ·
continued from here


No, you misunderstood me. I was agreeing that those who are against equal treatment need to ask themselves your question. I wasn't attempting to answer it myself.
Oh, Ok. Sorry. :blush:


When have any of us needed to submit to a criminal background check as a condition for civil rights?
Only when buying a gun, or when I joined the army, or applied for a police job, or applied for a security job.

On another note. It just seems to me, that anyone should be able to OC in any state, regardless of Citizenshp status, as long as,

A.) The state does not infringe on our rights, such as some of those states that do not allow OC. (As well as those that do not allow CC) and

B.) They are in this country legally.
 
#2 ·
If the "aliens" are here legally, have citizenship, and have a legitimate background check, I do not see how I can deny them CCW. I may not like the sound of it, but legally it is what it is. Now if any one of the above is a NO, then the CCL should be NO as well.
 
#8 ·
Ditto in OK as well a many states.

What one thinks about rights and what the law says...whether state or federal...sometimes have little in common. But there are lots of ways for SD besides a gun...so denying a right...one that can be argued till the cows come home.

Rick
 
#6 ·
In Alabama it is up to the issuing Sheriff. In Elmore County a permenat resident Alien can not get a CCW in Morgan County you could at one time, they have a new Sheriff and I don't know if he changed the rules.
 
#7 ·
I would imagine the declaration of independence should be considered as well as the Constitution...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness

We take from this that "all Men" being everyone is entitled to rights by birth. Including the right to defend themselves where ever they may be and no matter their status of nationality. It should be assumed that if they are here legally then they are given these rights and they should be respected. At least thats my thoughts on it. Its not something we can just simply say and not adhere to because it is the basis on which we all stand in this country.
 
#9 ·
We take from this that "all Men" being everyone is entitled to rights by birth. Including the right to defend themselves where ever they may be and no matter their status of nationality. It should be assumed that if they are here legally then they are given these rights and they should be respected. At least thats my thoughts on it. Its not something we can just simply say and not adhere to because it is the basis on which we all stand in this country.

You are partly correct.
Fact of the matter is they are entiteld to the rights given to them by the Creator.

Unfortunatley the Federal Government and lots of state governments dont see it that way and they grant or exclude rights based on citizenship.
 
#13 ·
Just because they do it, does not make it correct.

In fact it was incorrect to allow slavery. But yet for years they did. Just as it is incorrect for states and federal government to deny basic rights of any kind to law abiding residents of our country. Citizens or not. We didn't found this country with the basic idea that only citizens had rights. We founded it on the basis that All men had those rights.

Again... as I stated before... if we truly believe what our country was founded upon, we would not deny these rights to legal aliens.
 
#10 ·
here anyone can OC but only citizens can get a license, I think it just got changed a while ago.
 
#11 ·
In VA a legal alien is able to get a CHP, as it should be. If they are an illegal alien they are prohibited by state law, as well as federal law prohibiting them for purchasing a weapon. I have no problem with a legal alien owning a weapon and having a carry permit. I DO have a problem with illegal doing it. JMO, any illegal alien caught, should immediately be deported back to their home country, no questions asked.
 
#15 ·
In Florida, legal resident aliens (= green card) can get a CWL.

There are a couple different "classes" of aliens:
- illegal aliens: in the country without any kind of valid visa
- non immigrant aliens: in the country for a short time, no declared intend to stay permanently (tourists, students, temporary workers).
- immigrant aliens: aliens that declared to stay permanently (either they applied for a green card, or obtained one).


There are very few laws that distinguish between citizens and resident aliens. For example the right to vote, hold a US passport and such. But almost anything else is equal. Resident aliens pay the same taxes as citizens and share most of the rights.

The constitution applies to citizens as well as non citizens. It usually distinguishes between "the people" (= everybody) and "citizens of the United States". the second amendment talks about "the people", not "citizens of the United States".
 
#17 ·
This discussion came up in another thread as a result of my pointing out that in WA State resident (legal) aliens are allowed to get a concealed handgun permit. But they must first get an alien firearms license (which allows them to possess a firearm). Without the license, you cannot even possess a gun, much less carry one concealed.

At issue in our State (and what caused the NRA to sue the State this month), is that the State will not issue or renew an alien firearms license. They do so because the FBI will not share background check information with non LE departments, and our State issues these licenses through the Department of Licensing without the involvement of LE. As a result, they have administratively prohibited legal aliens from possessing, or carrying firearms in our State.
 
#18 ·
In Georgia, under Georgia code 16-11-129, anyone legally in the U.S. can get a Georgia Firearms License. This is shown in the following subsection:

(3) When a person who is not a United States citizen applies for a license or renewal of a license under this Code section, the judge of the probate court shall direct the law enforcement agency to conduct a search of the records maintained by the United States Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement. As a condition to the issuance of a license or the renewal of a license, an applicant who is in nonimmigrant status shall provide proof of his or her qualifications for an exception to the federal firearm prohibition pursuant to 18 U.S.C. Section 922(y).
 
#19 ·
Hello from Oregon

My first post.....
I am "Legal Permanent Resident" i.e. Green Card holder, and am currently in the process of applying for my concealed handgun permit.

I think some of the confusion comes from the terminology used. But I can assure you that a "Green Card" is utterly and completely different from any other kind of "alien" status. I have been checked, double-checked, probed by the FBI, the Secret Service, Homeland Security, fingerprinted multiple times, and if I so much as fart in the wrong direction I'll have my status revoked.

Why have I put up with all of this? That's simple -- because I LOVE this country. The very idea that here, in America, self-defense is "allowed" is so profound to me that I get up every morning with a smile.

Where I came from, if I even conjure up the image of a gun, a well-meaning, fair and polite jack-booted thug in a trench coat will arrive at my door and ransack my house.

Sorry about the rant, but for me the Second Amenment IS America. It's the main thing that makes the country so interesting. The very concept that all people have this right just blows me away. All people -- not just full-fledged members of the secret club. It's the reason I'm here for sure.
 
#23 ·
I have been checked, double-checked, probed by the FBI, the Secret Service, Homeland Security, fingerprinted multiple times, and if I so much as fart in the wrong direction I'll have my status revoked.
The Secret Service???
 
#21 ·
The only thing that I can think of as being "against" this would be a brand new immigrant, since they wouldn't have any criminal background even if they did in their country of origin. But I'd say a simple residency requirement is enough for that.

Other than that I think anyone who is here legally has a right to self-defense along with the rest of us. Remember that when the Constitution was written and this country born, nearly everyone was an immigrant, or a child of an immigrant... this country was founded on immigration.
 
#22 ·
In Missouri, an LPR can purchase a gun.

But they are prohibited from obtaining a CCW endorsement.

U.S. citizens only.
 
#27 ·
Don't worry DOG, the sherriff made it quite clear that I wouldn't be getting a "real" CCW.

There are different rules: I can't own an
American-made gun or anything designed by John Moses Browning, and I can't use any caliber starting with a "4". And, if I'm attacked, even in my own house, I'm only allowed to defend myself, my family, and any American-born guests if the BG is another foreigner.

So it all works out! :smile:
 
#28 ·
Dor my wife is a permanent resident and not a US citizen and she can vote, in local elections. She pays taxes and probably knows more about the US Constitution and Goverment than 95% of natural born citizens.

We can she not have the ability to protect herself.

And to pual34, you have to have a criminal background check done before you apply for your green card which can take up to 3 years or longer to get.
 
#34 ·
And to pual34, you have to have a criminal background check done before you apply for your green card which can take up to 3 years or longer to get.
Ahh, didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know.

I guess its worse that I didn't know, seeing as how both my parents immigrated nearly 30 years ago and my dad became a citizen about a decade ago :redface:
 
#29 ·
There are some interesting dimensions to this discussion that aren't being hit upon.

It could well be that denying a license to a lawful permanent resident is a violation of their rights, and discrimination based on national origin.

A permanent resident is quite a different type of individual than someone on a work or student visa or a tourist visa. Employers, for example, may not deny them employment based on their lack of citizenship-- the exception of course is Federal Employment, or the rare private job in which a security clearance is needed. They can certainly join the military, and have been drafted routinely in the past-- sometimes within days of their arrival.

I think it is illegal even for a police departments to use lack of US citizenship in hiring decisions, and thus these "laws" prohibiting non-citizens from getting a chl may be quite improper. I'm going to guess that they have simply not been adequately challenged. They should be, and should be overturned.

Folks, please keep in mind that a permanent resident, can enter and reenter the country, move about freely, take employment, sue and be sued.

There are very few things a Green Card holder (lawful permanent resident) can not do; and these are fairly well limited to Federal Employment, voting, a jury service.

Sometimes, states pass laws that are clearly in conflict with Federal law, and for whatever reason, these don't get challenged and overturned. These prohibitions against permanent residents sound like they fall in that category.
 
#30 ·
I think those activist idiots have propagandize ILLEGALS as Immigrants etc... so much that some people cant tell the difference.

I think it infuriates permanent residents, people that follow the long process, time and money (above all the LAW) to come to this country then the activists bundle them as part of their hate america crap.

another group with their hidden socialist/communist agenda.
 
#33 ·
Hybrid, I don't know about the "socialist / communist" agenda stuff; I think that is trotted out for all sorts of stuff where it is irrelevant to the discussion.

However, you are right that those who support illegal aliens and expansion of various categories of work visas, deliberately use language that confuses ordinary folks about the distinctions between the various categories of immigrant.

Comparing a permanent resident with a tourist, a foreign student, or an illegal, is a bit like not knowing the difference between a cat and a giraffe.
 
#46 ·
Illegal aliens are not eligible to be in possession of firearms at all. Legal aliens are entitled to the same due process rights as everyone else. But the second amendment does not apply to the states. There is no "right to bear arms" as to anyone who lives outside the boundaries of the territories and installations of the United States. (Technically, New Jersey is not "in" the United States, New Jersey is a member state of the United States - DuPont Circle, on the other hand, is "in" the U.S., because it's located in upper Northwest D.C.)

So the Second Amendment has no bearing on a state's decision on whether and how to issue concealed carry permits to resident aliens. However, the resident aliens are entitled to due process and equal protection of the laws, because those rights have been applied to the states by the Fourteenth Amendment.
 
#49 ·
I know the biggest problem my wife has with becoming a US citizen is reannouncing her Canadain citizenship.

Would you rennounce your US Citizenship? I wouldn't.
 
#54 ·
Some countries offer dual-citizenship, but I'm not sure if Canada is one of them. Also, there are some restrictions on dual-citizenship individuals in some regards.

Also, sometimes I am not big about dual-citizenship. A lot of the people I see doing it only do it for the legal and social advantages, rather than a greater sense of identity with the second country.
 
#51 ·
Charters of Freedom - The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights

Similarly, Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U.S. 763, 784 (1950) considered the meaning of "the people" and denied Bill of Rights protection to enemy aliens because otherwise:

Such a construction would mean that during military occupation irreconcilable enemy elements, guerrilla fighters, and "werewolves" could require the American Judiciary to assure them freedoms of speech, press, and assembly as in the First Amendment, right to bear arms as in the Second, security against "unreasonable" searches and seizures as in the Fourth, as well as rights to jury trial as in the Fifth and Sixth Amendments.

As is clear, the rights to speech and bearing arms are assumed to be guaranteed to the citizens. After quoting the First Amendment, the Court has referred to "the equally unqualified command of the Second Amendment: 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."' Konigsberg v. State Bar of California, 366 U.S. 36, 49 n.10 (1961). As stated by the Court:

Thomas Jefferson in some cases could be called a prophet.



When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe,

we shall become as corrupt as Europe.
Thomas Jefferson





The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who

are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson






It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes.

A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.
Thomas Jefferson







I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the

government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson







My reading of history convinces me that most bad government

results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson




No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
Thomas Jefferson



The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is,

as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson




The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson



To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which

he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson




Very Interesting Quote
In light of the present financial crisis, it's interesting to read what Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency,

first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around

the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless


on the continent their fathers conquered.'
 
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