2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type)

This is a discussion on 2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type) within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; My apologies. Originally Posted by QKShooter ... If you can't figure out how to compose a post without it being confrontational or a personal attack ...

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Thread: 2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type)

  1. #136
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    My apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    ...If you can't figure out how to compose a post without it being confrontational or a personal attack on someone, simply bite your lip and don't post it....
    I have failed to respond to a personal attack without being confrontational, and don't know how to continue with this thread without in some way being confrontational.

    I've made my point as best I can on an internet forum. I believe the overwhelming public (per every poll I have seen) would agree with me. As a matter of fact, 2A does not apply to non-citizens as a right. It has come up a few times, but never definitely determined. I have been unable to find a court case on the subject (as every time it has come up it has been resolved prior to trial). If someone has an example, please let me know.

    Good luck to those seeking citizenship. Best wishes.

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  3. #137
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    I've made my point as best I can on an internet forum. I believe the overwhelming public (per every poll I have seen) would agree with me. As a matter of fact, 2A does not apply to non-citizens as a right. It has come up a few times, but never definitely determined. I have been unable to find a court case on the subject (as every time it has come up it has been resolved prior to trial). If someone has an example, please let me know.
    I know of no federal court case, but as I mentioned previously, the State of Michigan Court of Appeals found in Chan v City of Troy , 220 Mich App 376; 559 NW2d 374 (1997), that the citizen requirement, now MCL 28.422(3)(c), for a permit to purchase a pistol contained in MCL 28.422(3)(b) violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and is unconstitutional. This was further extended into our Concealed Pistol License law, which now reads, as one of the requirements:
    (b) The applicant is a citizen of the United States or is a resident legal alien as defined in section 11 of title 18 of the United States Code, is a resident of this state, and has resided in this state for at least 6 months.
    Yes, it's only one. But there you have a court case that, in this instance says denying the 2A right to a legal resident alien is a violation of their 14th amendment rights.

  4. #138
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Guess you have me on that Al.

    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wba...ty_of_troy.txt

    I did not search properly, as this is a denied a permit to purchase a pistol, I'm considering non-citizen CC. From the sounds of it, would still fall under equal protection.

    I wonder if the fact that a non-citizen can't vote would prevent their ability to CC in MI? Also, CC is considered a shall-issue privlage in MI, not a right, right?

    (ii) The person is lawfully registered to vote in this state.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(m3h...ame=mcl-28-422

  5. #139
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Guess you have me on that Al.

    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wba...ty_of_troy.txt

    I did not search properly, as this is a denied a permit to purchase a pistol, I'm considering non-citizen CC. From the sounds of it, would still fall under equal protection.

    I wonder if the fact that a non-citizen can't vote would prevent their ability to CC in MI? Also, CC is considered a shall-issue privlage in MI, not a right, right?

    (ii) The person is lawfully registered to vote in this state.

    Michigan Legislature
    As far as I know, the right to vote in State elections is generally granted to legal, resident aliens in some/most states. It is only federal elections (i.e., voting for the President) where you have to be a citizen.

    In Michigan, legal resident aliens can apply for a Concealed Pistol License. And, like 46, of the 48 states that have CCW laws, (Alaska and Vermont being the only current exceptions) in Michigan, CC is a privilege, since you need a permit to do so. Michigan is a "Shall Issue" state. But, let's face it, if you have to ask, it is still a privilege. Although, I'm sure some may disagree.

    Also, I'll refer you back to my previous message, the 2nd quote in there is regarding conditions to apply for a CPL.

  6. #140
    Member Array paul1968mcr's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    I stumbled across this thread quite by accident as I was researching this very topic!

    I am a very recent (2 weeks) Green Card holder. We moved to the States 2 years ago, and rapidly fell in love with the place and the people - It has taken us from December '07 till now to finally get our LPR status, and many many $1000.

    We fully intend to apply for our Citizenship after the mandatory 5 year wait. The wait I do not mind, gives the authorities time to establish if we are worthy......all we really have to do is keep filing those taxes, and remain out of trouble with the law - we managed to do that for 38 years in England without too much trouble.

    We will have dual Nationality as the UK does not recognise the US pledge as legal in the UK...We'd have to renounce our citizenship to a UK official (yes we are citizens, not subjects - I'll take a pic of the page in my passport if ya interested) That would restrict our access into the UK obviously (all our family are there), and very likely impact our access to the state pension we contributed too for soooo long. So rather than it being a snub to our new home, it's just being pragmatic.

    One of the very exciting thing about coming to the USA for me was the refreshingly liberal Gun laws....within a week of me arriving I joined the NRA....I was a member of the National Pistol Association back in the UK in the 90's, just before Dumblane sealed the fate of Handguns in the UK....That was a sad time!

    Now prior to my GC, I was able to purchase Long Guns here, there is an exception in the regulations that allows non-immigrant visa holders to obtain long guns if they are in possession of a valid state hunting permit. I'm the proud owner of a Henry .44 mag, 20 gauge 870, and a 10/22 (that I am about to give to my son as a squirrel gun).

    Now I have my GC, I want to purchase a hangun, which in Indiana I can do, I also want to conceal carry, for the very same reasons you guys wanna conceal carry. I can't quite seem to establish if as a dreaded non-citizen I'd be allowed to do so, tried emailing the State Police, nothing yet - Any of you guys know if I'm in luck, or failing that if I could obtain a hunting and target permit??

  7. #141
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul1968mcr View Post
    Hi Guys,.....
    Now I have my GC, I want to purchase a hangun, which in Indiana I can do, I also want to conceal carry, for the very same reasons you guys wanna conceal carry. I can't quite seem to establish if as a dreaded non-citizen I'd be allowed to do so, tried emailing the State Police, nothing yet - Any of you guys know if I'm in luck, or failing that if I could obtain a hunting and target permit??
    I went to Indiana's state government site and did a little probing around. They have an online application that is only good in a few counties, (Surrounding Indianapolis, I think). But there's also a FAQ that I checked out, and there's nothing in Indiana's laws that says an immigrant alien can't apply for a carry permit. If you want to look, check out ISP: Home and look for "Firearms FAQ." It's a PDF document. And the online form does have a place for an INS number, if you're not a US Citizen. So I'd assume that yes, you can get an Indiana handgun carry permit.

    Go for it!!

  8. #142
    Member Array paul1968mcr's Avatar
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    Hey, thanks alot for taking the time to look at that for me!!!

    I've since discovered the most difficult thing about concealed carry in Indiana is nothing to do with any State law.....It's convincing my wife to let me spend the money to get a permit and a new handgun!

  9. #143
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul1968mcr View Post
    Hey, thanks alot for taking the time to look at that for me!!!

    I've since discovered the most difficult thing about concealed carry in Indiana is nothing to do with any State law.....It's convincing my wife to let me spend the money to get a permit and a new handgun!
    That's usually the way it goes. A 4 year permit in Indiana isn't very expensive. The lifetime one, is still a deal, considering we pay $105.00 for 5 years here in Michigan.

    The gun, well, that's another matter. Maybe if you took her out and taught her how to shoot, it might not be so bad.

  10. #144
    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    I've quickly looked at this thread.

    what right don't I have that you have? because you are a citizen?

    I'm law abiding, I'm a tax paying human being. I've done everything you can.

    Why can't I defend my wife and my child if some criminal was to step in my house?

    there are WAY more citizens that are 'bad' compared to 'bad' lawful aliens in this country.

    I would say some things, but I will refrain.

    my child's life is just as important as your childs. (not that I have one at the moment, but if I did)

    I am proud to live in this country, and I am happy that I get every right as any other human being on the face of this country.

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