2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type) - Page 4

2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type)

This is a discussion on 2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type) within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Illegal aliens are not eligible to be in possession of firearms at all. Legal aliens are entitled to the same due process rights as everyone ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array user's Avatar
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    Illegal aliens are not eligible to be in possession of firearms at all. Legal aliens are entitled to the same due process rights as everyone else. But the second amendment does not apply to the states. There is no "right to bear arms" as to anyone who lives outside the boundaries of the territories and installations of the United States. (Technically, New Jersey is not "in" the United States, New Jersey is a member state of the United States - DuPont Circle, on the other hand, is "in" the U.S., because it's located in upper Northwest D.C.)

    So the Second Amendment has no bearing on a state's decision on whether and how to issue concealed carry permits to resident aliens. However, the resident aliens are entitled to due process and equal protection of the laws, because those rights have been applied to the states by the Fourteenth Amendment.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.


  2. #47
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel556 View Post
    I fail to see how his previous and current status both as a citizen and a member of the armed forces are any of our business.

    Knowledge of such is certainly not necessary to "validate" either his or for that matter your opinion.

    Go back and look at his posts. He is the one that brings up military service. He is the one who ties military service to aliens.

    Maybe his views on aliens, relates to that he is one or was one or has friends or relatives who are or were aliens. Not to validate his opinion nor to validate mine. I never expected an answer. All of which or none of which, matters.

    Neither or Either way changes anything, many states do not allow illegal or legal aliens to have firearms which is the way it should be. We could not do the same in their country and what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If the aliens do not like then go back to from which they came.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post


    Nope. There are waivers for that.
    The waivers for language are directly related to the age of the applicant:
    1) Over 50 and living in the US for 20 years.
    2) Over 55 and living in the US for 15 years.

    All require to take the civics test. Those over 65 can take a special short version of the test.

    The only way to avoid both language and civics:

    A naturalization applicant may be eligible for a waiver of all testing if he/she has a medically determinable physical or mental impairment or combination of impairments which renders her unable to pass the tests in English language skills and civics
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  4. #49
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    I know the biggest problem my wife has with becoming a US citizen is reannouncing her Canadain citizenship.

    Would you rennounce your US Citizenship? I wouldn't.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  5. #50
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    Time needed to obtain citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by jlhinvegas View Post
    I can't answer for all, but my husband is a permanent resident and can not apply for US citizenship for 3 years. (It can be a 5 year wait for others.) He fully intends to apply for citizenship once he passes the waiting period.
    Yes, three years if married to a US citizen; five if not married to a US citizen; LONGER if any of a variety of other factors crop up, including frequent moves from one state to another (must live in one place for a year), and paper pushing incompetence by immigration officials can all add time to the process. Also, in many locations naturalization ceremonies are held only infrequently so folks must either be able to travel for this or wait till one is done closer to home.

    As to why people don't become US citizens, this question made lots of sense years back when people came here with no expectation of returning to their country of origin. Nowadays, with air travel somewhat inexpensive and intercontinental travel easy, people harbor a hope of returning to family, to childhood places, and so on.

    I personally don't know a permanent resident who didn't eventually become a US citizen, but I can understand why some might make a different choice.

  6. #51
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Charters of Freedom - The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights

    Similarly, Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U.S. 763, 784 (1950) considered the meaning of "the people" and denied Bill of Rights protection to enemy aliens because otherwise:

    Such a construction would mean that during military occupation irreconcilable enemy elements, guerrilla fighters, and "werewolves" could require the American Judiciary to assure them freedoms of speech, press, and assembly as in the First Amendment, right to bear arms as in the Second, security against "unreasonable" searches and seizures as in the Fourth, as well as rights to jury trial as in the Fifth and Sixth Amendments.

    As is clear, the rights to speech and bearing arms are assumed to be guaranteed to the citizens. After quoting the First Amendment, the Court has referred to "the equally unqualified command of the Second Amendment: 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."' Konigsberg v. State Bar of California, 366 U.S. 36, 49 n.10 (1961). As stated by the Court:

    Thomas Jefferson in some cases could be called a prophet.



    When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe,

    we shall become as corrupt as Europe.
    Thomas Jefferson





    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who

    are willing to work and give to those who would not.
    Thomas Jefferson






    It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes.

    A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.
    Thomas Jefferson







    I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the

    government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
    Thomas Jefferson







    My reading of history convinces me that most bad government

    results from too much government.
    Thomas Jefferson




    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
    Thomas Jefferson



    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is,

    as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
    Thomas Jefferson




    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
    Thomas Jefferson



    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which

    he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
    Thomas Jefferson




    Very Interesting Quote
    In light of the present financial crisis, it's interesting to read what Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

    'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

    If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency,

    first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around

    the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless


    on the continent their fathers conquered.'

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    The waivers for language are directly related to the age of the applicant:
    1) Over 50 and living in the US for 20 years.
    2) Over 55 and living in the US for 15 years.

    All require to take the civics test. Those over 65 can take a special short version of the test.

    The only way to avoid both language and civics:
    You are correct. You did your homework.

    This is also one of the most abused waivers in Immigration.

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel556 View Post
    Please check your facts before making biased and incorrect statements of fact. Both legal and illegal immigrants are required to register with the Selective Service.

    "Almost all other male noncitizens are required to register, including illegal aliens, legal permanent residents, and refugees. The general rule is that if a male noncitizen takes up residency in the U.S. before his 26th birthday, he must register with Selective Service."

    Selective Service System: Fast Facts
    No bias intended.

    Do you have knowledge of how many illegals register with Selective Service?

    It may be a "requirement" to register, but illegals have already thumbed their nose at our laws by entering without inspection. Do you honestly believe that they will line up to register for the Selective Service?

    Immigration can find an applicant ineligible to naturalize on the basis of the applicant's failure to have registered unless he can establish that he did not knowingly and willfully fail to do so. The burden of proof rests with the applicant, and unless he can prove the contrary by a "preponderance of the evidence," then Immigration may presume his failure to register to have been knowing and willful.

    Immigration is "fully justified" to deny an applicant if that applicant is unwilling to bear arms when the law requires. Such a finding would support the further inference that the applicant "is not disposed to the good order and happiness" of the U.S. Accordingly, naturalization applicants who fall within the relevant age range and refuse to register for Selective Service should be denied.

  9. #54
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    I know the biggest problem my wife has with becoming a US citizen is reannouncing her Canadain citizenship.

    Would you rennounce your US Citizenship? I wouldn't.
    Some countries offer dual-citizenship, but I'm not sure if Canada is one of them. Also, there are some restrictions on dual-citizenship individuals in some regards.

    Also, sometimes I am not big about dual-citizenship. A lot of the people I see doing it only do it for the legal and social advantages, rather than a greater sense of identity with the second country.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOGOFWAR01 View Post
    Neither or Either way changes anything...
    That was my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by DOGOFWAR01 View Post
    Neither or Either way changes anything, many states do not allow illegal or legal aliens to have firearms which is the way it should be. We could not do the same in their country and what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If the aliens do not like then go back to from which they came.
    If you'd care to read the following link, I think you'll find that you're mistaken. Every state except Washington currently recognizes a legal aliens right to "keep" arms, and Washington is being sued.

    In reference to Washington's illegal requirement for an alien firearms license (which they will no longer provide), “Forty-nine other states feel no compulsion to require such alien licenses” - SAF Press Release :: SAF, NRA SUE WASHINGTON STATE FOR DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ALIEN RESIDENTS

    Another interesting resource. Note that Washington is the only state in which possession of a firearm by a legal alien is a crime.

    US gun laws for non-citizens

    Note that some states prevent legal aliens from acquiring concealed carry permits. This is not the same as preventing ownership of firearms. Concealed carry is generally considered to be a privilege, while Open carry is generally considered to be a right of the people ("bear arms"). Not to mention the fact that if you are in such a state you can simply apply for a concealed carry permit in another "reciprocal" state, and thereby be in compliance with your states laws while concealing as an alien.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOGOFWAR01 View Post

    ...The draft should be put back into effect. All aliens need to serve in the U.S. military if physically qualified, if not serve in the Peace Corps or some other government service for, either way 4 years min before USA Citizenship status.
    Are you proposing that all American citizens who have NOT served in the military be stripped of their citizenship? That is where your argument leads.
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; January 3rd, 2009 at 01:35 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tags.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul34 View Post
    Some countries offer dual-citizenship, but I'm not sure if Canada is one of them. Also, there are some restrictions on dual-citizenship individuals in some regards.

    Also, sometimes I am not big about dual-citizenship. A lot of the people I see doing it only do it for the legal and social advantages, rather than a greater sense of identity with the second country.
    The US does not reconginize dual citizenship and to become a US citizen you have to rennouce all fromer oaths or ties to other countires
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  13. #58
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    Dual citizenship/ renouncing other

    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    The US does not reconginize dual citizenship and to become a US citizen you have to rennouce all fromer oaths or ties to other countires
    There are countries which make it impossible to renounce your citizenship. Greece is one of these.

    I had a US citizen friend who went back to Greece for a visit and was forcibly conscripted the moment he arrived. When I asked my senator to see if the US could do anything to assist, I got a letter from our embassy saying that if he could get himself there, they would help. Well, of course, he was otherwise occupied and unable to take himself to the US embassy.

    So, one can renounce their allegiance to another country, but that might have no effect whatsoever.

    And of course, plenty of people renounce allegiance but maintain it in their hearts.

    There are basically two types of folks who become naturalized--- a) they can't go back, won't go back, hate the h out of the government of their native country, and h would freeze before they would ever say a nice word about the place; b) folks who move here for convenience, economic necessity, but are not leaving a dysfunctional or abusive government and society. The latter will tend to harbor good feelings toward their country of origin. (E.g., my former boss was Canadian by birth, naturalized as a US citizen, but routinely returns to Canada for vacations and family stuff.)

    Most of our immigration laws were created or have origins in a time when it was rare for anyone who came here to expect to return--if for no other reason trips were expensive, arduous, and dangerous. Nowadays, other motivations are a factor and people do expect to go home as tourists or residents some day.

  14. #59
    Senior Member Array PaulJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    The US does not reconginize dual citizenship and to become a US citizen you have to rennouce all fromer oaths or ties to other countires
    The first part of your statement is right, the second one not.

    Once you are a US citizen, the US government considers you just that, nothing else. As part of the oath you take, you renounce all allegiance to other governments. However, the US does not ask you to formally renounce your citizenship, and just "doesn't care" if you have other citizenships as long as you don't exercise them (e.g. vote in the other country). This is the result of some countries that do not have a process to renounce a citizenship, or used it in the past to prevent their citizens from becoming US citizens.
    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. (Thomas Jefferson)

  15. #60
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbocow View Post
    Are you proposing that all American citizens who have NOT served in the military be stripped of their citizenship? That is where your argument leads.

    I stated aliens. I do not Citizens. Back in the 1950's, President former General Dwight Eisenhower (Republican), WWII Supreme Allied Commander, thought everyone (including) in the USA should 2 years of military or some type of government service. President and U.S. Navy WWII PT Boat Capt John F. Kennedy stated Ask not what your Country can do for you but what you can do for your Country.

    No that is not where my statements lead because that was not my statement, that is where your mind leads.

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