2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type)

This is a discussion on 2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type) within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by diesel556 That was my point. If you'd care to read the following link, I think you'll find that you're mistaken. Every state ...

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Thread: 2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type)

  1. #61
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel556 View Post
    That was my point.



    If you'd care to read the following link, I think you'll find that you're mistaken. Every state except Washington currently recognizes a legal aliens right to "keep" arms, and Washington is being sued.

    In reference to Washington's illegal requirement for an alien firearms license (which they will no longer provide), “Forty-nine other states feel no compulsion to require such alien licenses” - SAF Press Release :: SAF, NRA SUE WASHINGTON STATE FOR DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ALIEN RESIDENTS

    Another interesting resource. Note that Washington is the only state in which possession of a firearm by a legal alien is a crime.

    US gun laws for non-citizens

    Note that some states prevent legal aliens from acquiring concealed carry permits. This is not the same as preventing ownership of firearms. Concealed carry is generally considered to be a privilege, while Open carry is generally considered to be a right of the people ("bear arms"). Not to mention the fact that if you are in such a state you can simply apply for a concealed carry permit in another "reciprocal" state, and thereby be in compliance with your states laws while concealing as an alien.
    Charters of Freedom - The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights

    Similarly, Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U.S. 763, 784 (1950) considered the meaning of "the people" and denied Bill of Rights protection to enemy aliens because otherwise:

    Such a construction would mean that during military occupation irreconcilable enemy elements, guerrilla fighters, and "werewolves" could require the American Judiciary to assure them freedoms of speech, press, and assembly as in the First Amendment, right to bear arms as in the Second, security against "unreasonable" searches and seizures as in the Fourth, as well as rights to jury trial as in the Fifth and Sixth Amendments.

    As is clear, the rights to speech and bearing arms are assumed to be guaranteed to the citizens. After quoting the First Amendment, the Court has referred to "the equally unqualified command of the Second Amendment: 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."' Konigsberg v. State Bar of California, 366 U.S. 36, 49 n.10 (1961). As stated by the Court:

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  3. #62
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel556 View Post
    That was my point.



    If you'd care to read the following link, I think you'll find that you're mistaken. Every state except Washington currently recognizes a legal aliens right to "keep" arms, and Washington is being sued.

    In reference to Washington's illegal requirement for an alien firearms license (which they will no longer provide), “Forty-nine other states feel no compulsion to require such alien licenses” - SAF Press Release :: SAF, NRA SUE WASHINGTON STATE FOR DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ALIEN RESIDENTS

    Another interesting resource. Note that Washington is the only state in which possession of a firearm by a legal alien is a crime.

    US gun laws for non-citizens

    Note that some states prevent legal aliens from acquiring concealed carry permits. This is not the same as preventing ownership of firearms. Concealed carry is generally considered to be a privilege, while Open carry is generally considered to be a right of the people ("bear arms"). Not to mention the fact that if you are in such a state you can simply apply for a concealed carry permit in another "reciprocal" state, and thereby be in compliance with your states laws while concealing as an alien.

    That is today. That was not the intent of the SECOND AMENDMENT in the late 1700's. The U.S. Constitution continues to be trampled on. Bear is Bear and Carry is Carry, makes no difference if open or concealed, it is just that so many have been brain washed for so long.

    I still stand that only Citizens should have firearms in any form or fashion. Legal aliens ok to hunt with a guide if the guide owns and maintains control of the gun and the ammo or a sporting shooting event such as IDPA, IPSC, etc. About the same as we would endure if we went to a foreign country, good for goose then good for gander.

  4. #63
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel556 View Post
    That was my point.



    If you'd care to read the following link, I think you'll find that you're mistaken. Every state except Washington currently recognizes a legal aliens right to "keep" arms, and Washington is being sued.

    In reference to Washington's illegal requirement for an alien firearms license (which they will no longer provide), “Forty-nine other states feel no compulsion to require such alien licenses” - SAF Press Release :: SAF, NRA SUE WASHINGTON STATE FOR DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ALIEN RESIDENTS

    Another interesting resource. Note that Washington is the only state in which possession of a firearm by a legal alien is a crime.

    US gun laws for non-citizens

    Note that some states prevent legal aliens from acquiring concealed carry permits. This is not the same as preventing ownership of firearms. Concealed carry is generally considered to be a privilege, while Open carry is generally considered to be a right of the people ("bear arms"). Not to mention the fact that if you are in such a state you can simply apply for a concealed carry permit in another "reciprocal" state, and thereby be in compliance with your states laws while concealing as an alien.
    Maybe read these books to really learn something about the SECOND AMENDMENT, rather than the way you think it ought to be.



    Amazon.com: A Right to Bear Arms: State and Federal Bills of Rights and Constitutional Guarantees (Contributions in Political Science): Stephen P. Halbrook: Books


    Amazon.com: that every man be armed: Books

    Amazon.com: The Founders' View of the Right to Bear Arms: A Definitive History of the Second Amendment: David Young: Books


    Amazon.com: To Keep and Bear Arms: The Origins of an Anglo-American Right: Joyce Lee Malcolm: Books

    Amazon.com: The Founders' Second Amendment: Origins of the Right to Bear Arms: Stephen P. Halbrook: Books

    Amazon.com: Whose Right to Bear Arms Did the Second Amendment Protect? (Historians at Work): Saul Cornell: Books

  5. #64
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel556 View Post
    That was my point.



    If you'd care to read the following link, I think you'll find that you're mistaken. Every state except Washington currently recognizes a legal aliens right to "keep" arms, and Washington is being sued.

    In reference to Washington's illegal requirement for an alien firearms license (which they will no longer provide), “Forty-nine other states feel no compulsion to require such alien licenses” - SAF Press Release :: SAF, NRA SUE WASHINGTON STATE FOR DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ALIEN RESIDENTS

    Another interesting resource. Note that Washington is the only state in which possession of a firearm by a legal alien is a crime.

    US gun laws for non-citizens

    Note that some states prevent legal aliens from acquiring concealed carry permits. This is not the same as preventing ownership of firearms. Concealed carry is generally considered to be a privilege, while Open carry is generally considered to be a right of the people ("bear arms"). Not to mention the fact that if you are in such a state you can simply apply for a concealed carry permit in another "reciprocal" state, and thereby be in compliance with your states laws while concealing as an alien.

    word for word from my previous post:

    The draft should be put back into effect. All aliens need to serve in the U.S. military if physically qualified, if not serve in the Peace Corps or some other government service for, either way 4 years min before USA Citizenship status.

  6. #65
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel556 View Post
    That was my point.



    If you'd care to read the following link, I think you'll find that you're mistaken. Every state except Washington currently recognizes a legal aliens right to "keep" arms, and Washington is being sued.

    In reference to Washington's illegal requirement for an alien firearms license (which they will no longer provide), “Forty-nine other states feel no compulsion to require such alien licenses” - SAF Press Release :: SAF, NRA SUE WASHINGTON STATE FOR DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ALIEN RESIDENTS

    Another interesting resource. Note that Washington is the only state in which possession of a firearm by a legal alien is a crime.

    US gun laws for non-citizens

    Note that some states prevent legal aliens from acquiring concealed carry permits. This is not the same as preventing ownership of firearms. Concealed carry is generally considered to be a privilege, while Open carry is generally considered to be a right of the people ("bear arms"). Not to mention the fact that if you are in such a state you can simply apply for a concealed carry permit in another "reciprocal" state, and thereby be in compliance with your states laws while concealing as an alien.
    Go back and read the U.S. Constitution. Go back read the basis and thoughts for the U.S. Constitution. Second Amendment is part of the U.S. Constitution. Who could and Who could not own and carry arms in those days ?

    Yes, non-USA-Citizens can and do serve in the U.S. military, they also serve in Iraq and Afghanistan, then they "earn" their U.S. Citizen status. I met several.

    When all the U.S. military troops serving around the world can come back to the USA obtain permits for conceal carry, buy any gun and ammo, they want regardless of the State they live in and regardless of their age then I will re-think the alien and gun issue.

    When all illegal aliens are out the USA and the borders of the USA are "sealed" tighter than Mason jar then I will re-think the alien and gun issue.

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    Dogofwar---I've no clue what you are trying to say in your posts. You appear to be mixing several separate issues.

    1) non-citizen rights to keep arms; denial of cc permits to such
    2) conscription
    3) some vague ideas about the constitution speaking to either of the two issues

  8. #67
    Member Array TheHun's Avatar
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    Talking

    Correct, if you are not a US citizen you should not have the right to defend your life, your children etc.

    Dogofwar01 quick question, how did they get the Internet up in the mountains?




    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    I carry a gun cause I can't carry a cop.

  9. #68
    Member Array diesel556's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOGOFWAR01 View Post
    Similarly, Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U.S. 763, 784 (1950) considered the meaning of "the people" and denied Bill of Rights protection to enemy aliens because otherwise:
    Are you really attempting to compare legal aliens with "enemy aliens"?

    I wonder if posting this 5 times would strengthen my point?

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulJ View Post
    The first part of your statement is right, the second one not.

    However, the US does not ask you to formally renounce your citizenship, and just "doesn't care" if you have other citizenships as long as you don't exercise them (e.g. vote in the other country).

    Here is the current Oath of Citizenship when you are sworn in as a U.S. Citizen

    What do you think the bolded statment means and do you think it is a formal request?


    I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  11. #70
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    pgrass--thanks for the text. The oath makes it perfectly clear what one is doing, and what one must believe one is doing when taking it.

    Sadly, a few other countries do not acknowledge such renunciations.

    Also even more sadly, there are small numbers of people who take that oath but don't take it to heart. Fortunately, I think these "frauds" are the tiny minority.

    If you want to see happy faces, people as happy as you will ever see them, attend a swearing in ceremony for new US citizens. The look on the faces is a mix of the joy you see at weddings and graduation ceremonies.

  12. #71
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    The naturalized citizens I have known take a fierce pride in their US citizenship. Most have even less use for someone here illegally than we do.
    I worked with one in a construction trade, he kept ICE in his cellphone speed dial. I actually saw him call one day and turn in an illegal who he overheard bragging about being in this country illegally and how he was getting away with it.

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    If you want to see happy faces, people as happy as you will ever see them, attend a swearing in ceremony for new US citizens. The look on the faces is a mix of the joy you see at weddings and graduation ceremonies.
    I can vouch for that. I encourage every natural born American to attend a natz ceremony. Well worth it.

    Sometimes, we take for granted that we were born in a democratic country.

    What some of these folks have had to go through to get here and to become a USC, it just overwhelms me.

  14. #73
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    Here is the current Oath of Citizenship when you are sworn in as a U.S. Citizen

    What do you think the bolded statment means and do you think it is a formal request?
    Quote:
    I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

    +++++++++++++++++

    Good post you did there ! Hopefully all will read word for word understand like :

    I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law

    that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law

    that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Personally I don't think 2A should grant the right to bear arms to any non-citizen. Esp. CC. It should be a privlage (not a right) for non-citizens , should be a may issue and not a shall issue basis regardless of the non-citizens status, IMO.

  16. #75
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Personally I don't think 2A should grant the right to bear arms to any non-citizen. Esp. CC. It should be a privlage (not a right) for non-citizens , should be a may issue and not a shall issue basis regardless of the non-citizens status, IMO.
    The 2nd Amendment does not Grant the right to bear arms. It GUARANTEES the right to bear arms.

    The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is, or should be a UNIVERSAL right for ALL PEOPLE. We just happen to be lucky enough to live in a country where it is recognized, however little it is, by the Main Stream Media and the far left. Still, it exists for one and all.

    Concerning concealed carry. In the 48 states that recognize it, it is a privilege in 46 of those states. Only Alaska and Vermont do not require us to apply for a PERMIT/LICENSE to carry concealed.

    Of course, this is just my humble opinion.

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