2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type) - Page 6

2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type)

This is a discussion on 2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type) within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Can we just leave the politics aside? In NV, Green Card holder has the same rights to obtain firearm like all citizens do. I just ...

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  1. #76
    New Member Array casinoeye702's Avatar
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    Can we just leave the politics aside?

    In NV, Green Card holder has the same rights to obtain firearm like all citizens do. I just hope if the SHTF, Green Card holders will fight like all citizens do.
    Last edited by HotGuns; January 9th, 2009 at 12:42 PM. Reason: language workaround


  2. #77
    New Member Array bobbocow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Personally I don't think 2A should grant the right to bear arms to any non-citizen. Esp. CC. It should be a privlage (not a right) for non-citizens , should be a may issue and not a shall issue basis regardless of the non-citizens status, IMO.
    I've been here since 2001. I'm working towards getting citizenship as fast as I can. I have an American-born son. Are you suggesting I don't have the right to defend him?

    Suppose YOUR wife and children are standing alongside me in a public place when some maniac starts shooting. Suppose he kills everyone -- your family, and me, too. Then you find out that two weeks earlier I was denied a CC permit because as a non-citizen, I hadn't earned the "privilege" of armed CC. Would you be okay with that, knowing that had I been armed I might have been able to save your loved ones?

    I'm not trying to be a jerk here -- I just think that if you thought it through you might reconsider your position.

  3. #78
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casinoeye702 View Post
    Can we just leave the politics aside?

    In NV, Green Card holder has the same rights to obtain firearm like all citizens do. I just hope if the SHTF, Green Card holders will fight like all citizens do.
    What politics? I was discussing the Constitution. Then again, for some people, that is political.

  4. #79
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    I understand your various emotional responses, but Green Card holders that apply for U.S. citizenship could possibly be found deportable, as a background check is conducted through the naturalization process. If this is a reasonable process, then demanding a background check for a CC permit should not be any different for a non-citizen.

    There are sound reasons for the legal differences between citizen and non-citizen. Likewise, it is not an undue burden to expect a non-citizen to be limited to "may issue" in contrast to "shall issue" CC permit. The right to bear arms should be a privlage for non-citizens and not a right.

    Quote Originally Posted by casinoeye702 View Post
    Can we just leave the politics aside?...
    Has nothing to do with politics. A nation has the right to safe guard its sovereignty and protect its citizenry.

    Quote Originally Posted by casinoeye702 View Post
    In NV, Green Card holder has the same rights to obtain firearm like all citizens do. I just hope if the SHTF, Green Card holders will fight like all citizens do.
    IMO, should only be a privlage for non-citizen. I don't know NV law. Is it a shall issue or may issue state? BTW, in a SHTF situation, I hope citizens will fight like Green Card holders will.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbocow View Post
    I've been here since 2001. I'm working towards getting citizenship as fast as I can. I have an American-born son. Are you suggesting I don't have the right to defend him?...
    Yes, until you area citizen, IMO, you should not be guaranteeded the right to bear arms. For non-citizens it should be an accessable privlage. There is a legal value between the difference of a right and a privlage, and I do not believe it is wise to extend this right to non-citizens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lowe View Post
    The 2nd Amendment does not Grant the right to bear arms. It GUARANTEES the right to bear arms...
    It both grants (legally) and guarantees (social contract).

  5. #80
    New Member Array bobbocow's Avatar
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    Wow.

    Well Thanis -- I guess I'm just meant to be defenseless in your little world.

    I guess your kids won't be playing with mine anytime soon.

  6. #81
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    No can vote then No Second Amendment "Rights" = No Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

  7. #82
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    I'm very pro-immigration, but that has nothing to do with 2A (in my little world).

    Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. "Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door

    It is not the Declaration of Independence, Constitution of the United States, but is a motto I think is critical to my nation. However, this does not equal allowing a foreigner to arm themselves in a nation that should protect citizens and sovereignty.

    It is not being treated like a 2nd class citizen to state the right to bear arms should be a privlage and not a right for a non-citizen. You either are a citizen or you are not, so there is no 2nd class citizen option. There is an important legal difference and is the difference between being a citizen and a guest, between right and privlage.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbocow View Post
    Well Thanis -- I guess I'm just meant to be defenseless in your little world...
    Not what I stated at all. Please read what I have stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by DOGOFWAR01 View Post
    No can vote then No Second Amendment "Rights" = No Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
    I definitely believe non-citizens should not be allowed to vote. As far as the rest of your logic, yes, you are a guess of another nation. By all means, let it be known how you feel. If you don't like how that nation might define the differences between rights and privlages for non-citizens, become a citizen and vote, or leave, or stay as long as you follow the law and remain legal.

  8. #83
    New Member Array bobbocow's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Thanis;977384]I'm very pro-immigration, but that has nothing to do with 2A (in my little world). QUOTE]



    Thanis, I'm going to try once again, since you ignored the other questions I asked.

    Answer me this: Are YOU willing to die to support your position?

    If a gunman was about to kill YOU, and the only other person around was ME [a non-citizen], would you want me to help you?

    Just ANSWER THE QUESTION

  9. #84
    New Member Array bobbocow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOGOFWAR01 View Post
    No can vote then No Second Amendment "Rights" = No Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
    Dog, fortunately for me the Liberal Weenies in my state are in charge, and.....they're going to allow me to get a Concealed Handgun License!

    What CC gun should I use? Ruger? Springfield? Surely a knowledgeable defender of the faith like yourself has a suggestion.

    Maybe a Portugese-made Browning Hi-Power? That would reflect my true status in your eyes.

    When I ride to Sturgis this summer, I will avoid your state if I am packing. Fair is fair.

    Oh, and since both you and Thanis have made it clear that I have no right to defend my American-citizen son, perhaps you could arrange for a company of stout-hearted soldiers to camp permanently around my house. You're a "Dog of War", right? I mean -- if I can't do it, and the police won't do it, somebody has to have mercy on me and my immigrant-scum familiy.

  10. #85
    Member Array alelks's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=bobbocow;977415]
    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    I'm very pro-immigration, but that has nothing to do with 2A (in my little world). QUOTE]



    Thanis, I'm going to try once again, since you ignored the other questions I asked.

    Answer me this: Are YOU willing to die to support your position?

    If a gunman was about to kill YOU, and the only other person around was ME [a non-citizen], would you want me to help you?

    Just ANSWER THE QUESTION


    I don't think a Non US Citizen should be allowed to own a firearm. Just thing about all the illegal Aliens (no I'm not just talking about Mexicans). There are many who are of other decent and unfortunatelly some of them are not here to help us but are here to literally KILL US. Should we let all of them have weapons too. I can guarantee you that if I go to Mexico or to many countries I won't be able to own a firearm.

    Would I want a non-US citizen to come to my aid? But of course. It would be nice if he had become a citizen and was allowed to carry a firearm so my answer would be yes but I would not expect him to have a firearm.

    We have criminals who are not allowed to carry firearms (they are citizens by the way). That right was given to them and taken away from them as citizens.

    If you want all the rights of a country then become a citizen of that country in my book.

    If you go to Kuwait would you expect as a non-citizen to be given money by the government that every Kuwaiti receives each year?

  11. #86
    New Member Array bobbocow's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=alelks;977526][QUOTE=bobbocow;977415]



    I don't think a Non US Citizen should be allowed to own a firearm. Just thing about all the illegal Aliens (no I'm not just talking about Mexicans). There are many who are of other decent and unfortunatelly some of them are not here to help us but are here to literally KILL US. Should we let all of them have weapons too. I can guarantee you that if I go to Mexico or to many countries I won't be able to own a firearm.

    Would I want a non-US citizen to come to my aid? But of course. It would be nice if he had become a citizen and was allowed to carry a firearm so my answer would be yes but I would not expect him to have a firearm.
    QUOTE]



    You guys seem to think that I can just "become a citizen". Not true. It's a long, drawn-out process that takes many years. I am a Legal Permanent Resident. That's the stage you have to go through before citizenship. And there is a waiting period, generally five years. I'm not here to pick lettuce for three weeks every year.

    And who said that Illegal Aliens should have firearms?

    I am in limbo for several years before citizenship. I didn't make the rules but I have to abide by them. And you're comparing me to a common criminal who's come here to kill you.

    What you are saying, essentially, is that while I am waiting for the required period of time I have no right to self-defense. Not for myself, not for my family, not even to help you or my community if it needed me.

    I'm just sitting here stunned. I never, ever thought I would hear Americans say things like this.

  12. #87
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    It is unfortunate that very many people are unable to make the intellectual distinctions among the various types and status of folks within our border.

    Briefly, besides citizens, we have:

    Lawful Permanent Residents. These people are mostly on a path to citizenship, have every right to be here under our law, are allowed to seek any job they can get with minor exceptions in Federal government and in security sensitive jobs.

    Working Visas of one type or another: Lawfully admitted for a fixed time period. Have every right to be hear under our law, may not apply for other jobs without authorization or leaving the country.

    Student visas: These folks are here so long as they are students. They are here lawfully. They may go anywhere, and do almost anything except hold a job outside of the school in which they are enrolled.

    Humanitarian probation: Lawfully admitted for all manner of special situations.

    Tourist Visa or Visa Waiver: These are visitors and guests. THey are here to see the sights, visit family, have a good time. They are here lawfully.

    Illegal Immigrant: Snuck across the border; entered without obtaining legal authorization or overstayed a temporary visa used to gain entry.

    Permanent residents, sometimes called green card holders, are treated about the same as US citizens except for voting, jury service, and in a couple of states firearms ownership. There is IMO no valid reason to prevent a lawful Green Card holder from buying, possessing, a gun or obtaining a license.

    I do think a line needs to be drawn. I wouldn't allow firearms ownership to tourists or others here for short stays.

    And certainly not to those present illegally.

  13. #88
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    I understand your various emotional responses, but Green Card holders that apply for U.S. citizenship could possibly be found deportable, as a background check is conducted through the naturalization process. If this is a reasonable process, then demanding a background check for a CC permit should not be any different for a non-citizen.
    Considering that most states conduct background checks for EVERYONE who applies for a concealed carry permit. That part is not unreasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    There are sound reasons for the legal differences between citizen and non-citizen. Likewise, it is not an undue burden to expect a non-citizen to be limited to "may issue" in contrast to "shall issue" CC permit. The right to bear arms should be a privlage for non-citizens and not a right.
    If you turn a right into a privilege, for one class of people, you're going to be closer to turning it into a privilege for all classes. Gun control got it's start in this country to keep slaves from rebelling. So essentially, gun control is racist in nature. The handgun registration we have in Michigan, got it's start after the Dr. Ossian Sweet affair. Again, this was an attempt to keep non-whites from acquiring firearms for self-defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Has nothing to do with politics. A nation has the right to safe guard its sovereignty and protect its citizenry.
    And ALL people have the basic right of self-defense, which includes the tools necessary to carry out that right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    IMO, should only be a privlage for non-citizen. I don't know NV law. Is it a shall issue or may issue state? BTW, in a SHTF situation, I hope citizens will fight like Green Card holders will.
    I believe Nevada is a Shall issue state.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Yes, until you area citizen, IMO, you should not be guaranteeded the right to bear arms. For non-citizens it should be an accessable privlage. There is a legal value between the difference of a right and a privlage, and I do not believe it is wise to extend this right to non-citizens.
    What is or isn't "wise" doesn't enter into it. It's a question of what is the "right thing to do." The right thing to do is to extend all the same rights to non-citizens, as to citizens. This does not necessarily apply to illegal aliens, as by their very nature, and how they are referred to, they are already law-breakers, and therefore, are only due those rights that we reserve for all criminals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    It both grants (legally) and guarantees (social contract).
    No, it protects an existing right. For the 2nd amendment to grant that right, we would have to recognize that the gov't could take that right away. Legally, they cannot. Doesn't mean they won't. As they've certainly done there best from time to time, to infringe the hell out of the 2nd amendment. But that right exists, with or without the 2nd amendment. The 2nd just makes it easier for us to exercise our rights.
    Last edited by Al Lowe; January 10th, 2009 at 01:20 PM. Reason: spelling

  14. #89
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lowe View Post
    What is or isn't "wise" doesn't enter into it. It's a question of what is the "right thing to do." The right thing to do is to extend all the same rights to non-citizens, as to citizens.
    rights.
    Hummm...then what is the distinction between a non-citizen and a citizen, i.e., why even apply for citizenship, what would be the purpose and/or advantage of doing so if such (all) rights apply to both? Bottomline...why even have citizenship at all???

    I always chuckle with the "you are not allowing me to protect myself or my family" argument. Lots of ways to protect...a firearm is only one. Not allowing...hardly.

    I'm in the citizenship camp...if it takes a period of time, so be it. With 2.6 million jobs lost last year...also makes me wonder.

    Rick

  15. #90
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbocow View Post
    I'm just sitting here stunned. I never, ever thought I would hear Americans say things like this.
    If it wasn't for our poor economy, I'd suggest moving to Michigan. As long as you are here legally, you can get a Concealed Pistol License in this state. It used to be you did have to be a US citizen. But the Michigan court of appeals found it violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and declared it unconstitutional.

    So, now the law reads as follows:

    (b) The applicant is a citizen of the United States or is a resident legal alien as defined in section 11 of title 18 of the United States Code, is a resident of this state, and has resided in this state for at least 6 months.
    Michigan has it's problems, but somethings, we manage to get right.

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