2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type)

This is a discussion on 2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type) within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by bandit383 Hummm...then what is the distinction between a non-citizen and a citizen, i.e., why even apply for citizenship, what would be the ...

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Thread: 2nd Amendment and Aliens (earthbound type)

  1. #91
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    Hummm...then what is the distinction between a non-citizen and a citizen, i.e., why even apply for citizenship, what would be the purpose and/or advantage of doing so if such (all) rights apply to both? Bottomline...why even have citizenship at all???
    Well, you do have to be a citizen to vote in the federal elections. At least you're supposed to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    I always chuckle with the "you are not allowing me to protect myself or my family" argument. Lots of ways to protect...a firearm is only one. Not allowing...hardly.
    True, but only a fool brings a knife/club/fists to a gun fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    I'm in the citizenship camp...if it takes a period of time, so be it. With 2.6 million jobs lost last year...also makes me wonder.
    I understand our glorious leader has a plan to fix that, after he's sworn into office.

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  3. #92
    Member Array diesel556's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbocow View Post
    I'm just sitting here stunned. I never, ever thought I would hear Americans say things like this.
    You are not the only one who is stunned. I am an American citizen, born and raised, I have great, great great, great great great (etc.) grandfathers whose graves I can, and have visited in the same graveyard in south Iowa.

    However, I have family members who are not citizens, and because of anti constitutional legislation they are not allowed to defend themselves in my current state of residence (Washington), unless of course they want to commit a felony (sarcasm).

  4. #93
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Stunned about what???...can you name me one country that allows non-citizens the same rights as citizens?

    Rick

  5. #94
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbocow View Post
    What CC gun should I use? Ruger? Springfield?

    Maybe a Portugese-made Browning Hi-Power? That would reflect my true status in your eyes.
    I'd say it depends on what you prefer. I prefer 1911 styles myself. At least as far as how the safety works. I hate the push up for off and push down for safe types. It doesn't feel natural to me.

    My typical carry pistol is a Taurus PT92AFS. It sort of looks like the Beretta 92, but the safety works like the 1911. I also have an EAA Witness in 10mm. The odd thing, I don't currently own a single pistol that was made in America.

  6. #95
    Member Array diesel556's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    Stunned about what???...can you name me one country that allows non-citizens the same rights as citizens?

    Rick
    Excellent point. You're right. Let's remove one of the founding principles that made America different, and great, so that we can be like other countries.

    In fact, we really should get with the times, and outlaw all firearms as Britain, and other countries have done.

  7. #96
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel556 View Post
    Excellent point. You're right. Let's remove one of the founding principles that made America different, and great, so that we can be like other countries.

    In fact, we really should get with the times, and outlaw all firearms as Britain, and other countries have done.

    Why would you even suggest that we should make our country more like others?
    Nice subtefuge...turn it around...why should non-citizens have the same rights as citizens? What...because you have a personal interest in it? Founding principles...hummm...were you there? Do you have some internal knowledge on what the thought process was?? The demographics, the historical experiences of the authors, the same arguments that you are making now?

    Has anybody even thought of the compexities that exist today...that in no way existed then...but one still wants to make it "one shoe fits all" mentality.

    Why should non-citizens have the same rights...uh, because you say so? You have your opinion...as the other thousands on a web forum...I suspect if a national poll was taken...you would lose. Why?? Prejudice?? Or perhaps people value their citizenship and prefer not to water it down.

    Rick

  8. #97
    Member Array diesel556's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    Nice subtefuge...turn it around...why should non-citizens have the same rights as citizens? What...because you have a personal interest in it? Founding principles...hummm...were you there? Do you have some internal knowledge on what the thought process was?? The demographics, the historical experiences of the authors, the same arguments that you are making now?

    Has anybody even thought of the compexities that exist today...that in no way existed then...but one still wants to make it "one shoe fits all" mentality.

    Why should non-citizens have the same rights...uh, because you say so? You have your opinion...as the other thousands on a web forum...I suspect if a national poll was taken...you would lose. Why?? Prejudice?? Or perhaps people value their citizenship and prefer not to water it down.

    Rick
    If you have the time, I urge you to read this thread in it's entirety. You'll find a post that cites alien's RTKBA in every state. Washington is the only state that does not currently allow alien firearm ownership (due to clerical issues), and guess what? It's about to change to fall in line with the rest of the country:

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/bil...Bills/1052.pdf

    Are you sure that you know which position is truly the minority?

  9. #98
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    Well, whether you like it or not, for the most part non-citizens absolutely do enjoy the same rights. Even those here illegally enjoy many of our rights: e.g., trial by jury.

    For the most part the various portions of our Constitution speak of people and persons, and not of citizens.

    These issues have been sorted out extensively through innumerable real cases and legislation, and what is, is, and mostly is probably quite consistent with all of our laws and our Constitution.

    So, if someone who not a U.S. citizen is given a CHL in their state, it is perfectly O.K. And when a state denies that CHL to a non-citizen, it probably is O.K., or the issue should be settled through some sort of litigation or legislation or both.

    We do have numerous and various anti-discrimination laws at the Federal and local level, and these apply to citizens and non-citizens alike. E.g., you may not discriminate in housing or employment on the basis of national origin.

  10. #99
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbocow View Post
    ... Thanis, I'm going to try once again, since you ignored the other questions I asked. Answer me this: Are YOU willing to die to support your position?

    If a gunman was about to kill YOU, and the only other person around was ME [a non-citizen], would you want me to help you? Just ANSWER THE QUESTION...
    I did not ignore your quest so much as I did not want to get involved in a argument of hypothetical. For every hypothetical you can provide where someone is a hero there are just as many or more hypotheticals where my armed wife or I end up shooting you because you are coming to our aid. The most likely SD situation has absolutely nothing to do with you coming to my, or one of my love ones, aid. So given the overwhelming unlikeless of your situation, it is not justification for passing on 2A as a right to non-citizens.

    You are better off giving examples where you are defending yourself or your family.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbocow View Post
    You guys seem to think that I can just "become a citizen". Not true. It's a long, drawn-out process that takes many years. I am a Legal Permanent Resident. That's the stage you have to go through before citizenship. And there is a waiting period, generally five years. I'm not here to pick lettuce for three weeks every year...
    I am in limbo for several years before citizenship. I didn't make the rules but I have to abide by them. And you're comparing me to a common criminal who's come here to kill you. What you are saying, essentially, is that while I am waiting for the required period of time I have no right to self-defense. Not for myself, not for my family, not even to help you or my community if it needed me. I'm just sitting here stunned. I never, ever thought I would hear Americans say things like this...
    Don't be stunned, as I imagine the vast majority of U.S. citizens would not agree with you. I am probably being very progressive in stating that the right to bear arms should be a privlage to non-citizens (esp. those with green cards). I stand behind what I stated. I do not believe 2A applies as a right to non-citizens. However, it should not be simply denied, thus the privlage status (so during that limbo, as a privlage, you may arm yourself).

    There is a difference between citizen and non-citizen, and there is a difference between a right and a privlage. I "feel" a legal non-citizen has a basic right to defend themselves if they are living and working in the United States, but I am unwilling to extend to a non-citizen the absolute right to be armed.

    I do wish you and yours well as you seek citizenship.
    Last edited by Thanis; January 10th, 2009 at 02:56 PM. Reason: spelling

  11. #100
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lowe View Post
    ...If you turn a right into a privilege, for one class of people, you're going to be closer to turning it into a privilege for all classes. Gun control got it's start in this country to keep slaves from rebelling. So essentially, gun control is racist in nature...
    Just because a government does not extend a citizen's rights to a non-citizen does not create a slave class. If this were true, the minute someone put foot on U.S. soil, they should be granted all rights of a citizen otherwise you are theoritically treating them like a slave.

    In addition, gun control is not racist (and that is a very unfair jump in logic). There are several forms of gun control, some are reasonable, some are not. Is a person who does not think 2A guarantees the right to bear FA firearms a racist. I can understand an argument that they are uninformed, but far from racist in nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lowe View Post
    ...And ALL people have the basic right of self-defense, which includes the tools necessary to carry out that right...What is or isn't "wise" doesn't enter into it. It's a question of what is the "right thing to do." The right thing to do is to extend all the same rights to non-citizens, as to citizens....
    Fully disagree. You are making the only essential difference between a citizen and a non-citizen the right to vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lowe View Post
    ...we would have to recognize that the gov't could take that right away...But that right exists, with or without the 2nd amendment. The 2nd just makes it easier for us to exercise our rights.
    You are applying a contract between a govenment and its citizens to non-citizens (who have not entered into contract with that government).

    As far as the philosophical often hyper-theological understanding that the right to bear arms is god given, I understand. However I also believe a just nation has the same god given right to protect sovereignty and citizens.

  12. #101
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbocow View Post
    You guys seem to think that I can just "become a citizen". Not true. It's a long, drawn-out process that takes many years. I am a Legal Permanent Resident. That's the stage you have to go through before citizenship. And there is a waiting period, generally five years. I'm not here to pick lettuce for three weeks every year.

    And who said that Illegal Aliens should have firearms?

    I am in limbo for several years before citizenship. I didn't make the rules but I have to abide by them. And you're comparing me to a common criminal who's come here to kill you.

    What you are saying, essentially, is that while I am waiting for the required period of time I have no right to self-defense. Not for myself, not for my family, not even to help you or my community if it needed me.

    I'm just sitting here stunned. I never, ever thought I would hear Americans say things like this.
    I think it's safe to say that everyone here applauds you for your desire to do things the right way. It is a lengthy wait to become a naturalized citizen.

    People's opinions are just that...."opinions". What matters are the laws, and you, sir, appear to be abiding by those laws or you wouldn't have gotten this far.

    We can't confuse state issues with federal issues. For example, your LPR status gives you the right to work without applying for an Employment Authorization Document. It gives you the right to travel outside the country and to return to the U.S. without Advance Parole. It does not give you the right to vote in our national elections, but once you are natzd, you will be able to do so.

    The CCW permit and the right to purchase a handgun is a state issue. And you are fortunate to live in a state that allows both.

    Good luck to you with your endeavor in pursuing citizenship. It will be a very proud day when you take the oath at your naturalization ceremony.

  13. #102
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    In addition, gun control is not racist (and that is a very unfair jump in logic). There are several forms of gun control, some are reasonable, some are not. Is a person who does not think 2A guarantees the right to bear FA firearms a racist. I can understand an argument that they are uninformed, but far from racist in nature.

    Fully disagree. You are making the only essential difference between a citizen and a non-citizen the right to vote.

    You are applying a contract between a govenment and its citizens to non-citizens (who have not entered into contract with that government).

    As far as the philosophical often hyper-theological understanding that the right to bear arms is god given, I understand. However I also believe a just nation has the same god given right to protect sovereignty and citizens.
    There is NO such thing as "reasonable gun control." None, nada, zip, zilch. ALL gun control is racist/classist/sexist in nature, depending on who is prohibited, or who's rights are infringed. At least it DID start that way, here. Gun control in the USA is more class based now. There are usually exceptions to can or can't do certain things. Like military/police, political figures and such. IF we adhered to how the founding Fathers meant for the 2nd Amendment to be viewed, there would be no distinction on rights for anyone.

    In some states, legal resident aliens can vote. So far as I know, it's only federal elections where they cannot. And I didn't make that law.

    Ok, to cut to the chase, where in the US Constitution does it say "the right of the Citizens to Keep and Bear Arms, shall not be infringed."??
    Last edited by Al Lowe; January 10th, 2009 at 05:56 PM. Reason: additional comments added

  14. #103
    Member Array alelks's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=bobbocow;977545][QUOTE=alelks;977526]
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbocow View Post



    I don't think a Non US Citizen should be allowed to own a firearm. Just thing about all the illegal Aliens (no I'm not just talking about Mexicans). There are many who are of other decent and unfortunatelly some of them are not here to help us but are here to literally KILL US. Should we let all of them have weapons too. I can guarantee you that if I go to Mexico or to many countries I won't be able to own a firearm.

    Would I want a non-US citizen to come to my aid? But of course. It would be nice if he had become a citizen and was allowed to carry a firearm so my answer would be yes but I would not expect him to have a firearm.
    QUOTE]



    You guys seem to think that I can just "become a citizen". Not true. It's a long, drawn-out process that takes many years. I am a Legal Permanent Resident. That's the stage you have to go through before citizenship. And there is a waiting period, generally five years. I'm not here to pick lettuce for three weeks every year.

    And who said that Illegal Aliens should have firearms?

    I am in limbo for several years before citizenship. I didn't make the rules but I have to abide by them. And you're comparing me to a common criminal who's come here to kill you.

    What you are saying, essentially, is that while I am waiting for the required period of time I have no right to self-defense. Not for myself, not for my family, not even to help you or my community if it needed me.

    I'm just sitting here stunned. I never, ever thought I would hear Americans say things like this.
    Please sir, do not put words in my mouth. I never compared you to anything. I was just stating some of the reasons. I don't make the laws but I can see why they are in place. I know the differences in non-US Citizens.

    Your question was (see the bold text also)and I quote : "If a gunman was about to kill YOU, and the only other person around was ME [a non-citizen], would you want me to help you?"

    I answered your question accordingly.

    My answer stands!

  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by alelks View Post
    If you go to Kuwait would you expect as a non-citizen to be given money by the government that every Kuwaiti receives each year?
    As someone else might say, apples and oranges. Comparing our laws to any other country, is not relevant. At least, not for the purposes of this discussion.

    It seems to me that many of us forget the USA is a unique country, in respect to our laws, customs, people, and how we got here.

  16. #105
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Getting off topic IMO. Stating that a non-citizen should not enjoy all the rights of a citizen is not racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lowe View Post
    There is NO such thing as "reasonable gun control." None, nada, zip, zilch. ALL gun control is racist/classist/sexist in nature, depending on who is prohibited, or who's rights are infringed....
    & so on.

    So a felon not being allowed to own a firearm is racist? A state not allowing someone to carry in a post office is racist? Requiring someone to register a hand gun is racist?

    You can argue some types of gun control are racist, or unreasonable, but this broad stroke defining all gun control as racist is asinine. You are scaremongering, the use of a "bad word" to influence the opinions and actions of others towards some specific end. Scaremongering is closer to racism then gun control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lowe View Post
    ...Ok, to cut to the chase, where in the US Constitution does it say "the right of the Citizens to Keep and Bear Arms, shall not be infringed."??
    Same statement made to justify every extreeme firearm ownership demand. Using the meaning of words, as often missed, the right should not be infringed. So, a reasonable restriction would not encroach upon 2A in a way that violates law or make obsolete 2A.

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