New Republican Party Position on Guns?????? - Page 5

New Republican Party Position on Guns??????

This is a discussion on New Republican Party Position on Guns?????? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by trapper T I believe both parties have the same agenda "TOTAL CONTROL". Their tactics may differ but the result is the same. ...

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Thread: New Republican Party Position on Guns??????

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by trapper T View Post
    I believe both parties have the same agenda "TOTAL CONTROL". Their tactics may differ but the result is the same. Both parties would gladly use the BOR and Constitution for Toilet Paper on Capital Hill. There is a lot of talk about sheep, we are just a different herd, blindly following the Republicans.
    I agree. Some here believe that politicians are out for our best interest. I wish I could believe they were right, but my experiences are that the majority of politicians are out for two things: themselves and their party. There is no doubt that either party would love to dominate at all levels. If I could think of one reason for both parties to exist, is that it creates a set of checks and balances to prevent total domination any one group.

    As for the constitution, I firmly believe it is not a living document. While interpretations may change, the constitution does not. I finally have fomed my own opinion after doing some reading (still have more to do), and to me the constitution was meant for the people, and not the states. The states are free to make laws as they see fit, and if they are not good for the people we will see the legislatures replaced, or a mass exodus from that given state. While I certainly wish we could use the BOR to have a national CCL, I do not believe it was meant to be. Our goal is to get the states to represent the wishes of the majority of constituents. That is why I am on this forum, and a follower of VCDL and NRA action alerts. If I get one, I act on it.

    But certainly I have more to learn, so Hpyard, SelfDefense and others, please chime in. Friendly debate is the best way to sharpen your level of intelligence.
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    THen let's applaud IL, NY, MA, MD, WI :--

    Quote Originally Posted by concealed View Post

    As for the constitution, I firmly believe it is not a living document. While interpretations may change, the constitution does not. I finally have fomed my own opinion after doing some reading (still have more to do), and to me the constitution was meant for the people, and not the states. The states are free to make laws as they see fit, and if they are not good for the people we will see the legislatures replaced, or a mass exodus from that given state.
    Cool, then let's all quit complaining when we can't carry and safely drive through NY. After all, they (the NY legislature) has merely done the will of the people of NY, who if they didn't like it would freely move to, ah, Florida. Oh, that happened already!!! But, it had something to do with sunshine and snow and not weapons laws.

    See, the problem with the let the states do their thing law is that we are a mobile society. And presently, we have no way to handle nationwide cc in a responsible and sensible manner. Congress came close with LEOSA, but that was for the benefit of a special group, not the people.

    And, I am not so sure that is a constitutional law if you come at it from SD or BAC's position (BAC, apologies if I am misstating your viewpoint.)

    See, SD and I share something. We both live in states where the cc laws are O.K. The difference is that I think 2A means there should be OK cc laws throughout the land.

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    No irony

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    The irony here is that you are suggesting the total control of the People by five unlected officials.

    ...
    No irony. The constitution itself gave those 5 unelected officials the powers you concern yourself about; and believe me, I don't like the way those five vote much of the time. But, that is clearly the power they have, to interpret the constitution including the BOR. Sometimes they do better than other times. With Presser and Cruishank they were a bunch of turkeys. (Although tying the right to assemble to the literal words of the phrase, "to petition the government" was an interesting way of looking at things.)

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    You are not helping my decision Hopyard. (lol) It is this discussion that tears at me, because all make good points. Truth is I guess, I think SD is correct in intent of founders, but you are correct in how reality is. If we cannot all agree, it is no wonder the government cannot decide.

    Now your example of NY and the CC law implies the government truly represents the will of the people. I do not believe that. I am not sure politicians as a whole always represent their constituents. That is the original reason I started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    No irony. The constitution itself gave those 5 unelected officials the powers you concern yourself about; and believe me, I don't like the way those five vote much of the time. But, that is clearly the power they have, to interpret the constitution including the BOR.
    Can you provide the Article and Section where the Judiciary is provided the power you suggest? Even the vaunted lawyers retrace their steps when the question arises.

    Let me save you the time. The power of judicial review does not exist. The Court has no power to make law or overturn laws made by the Congress and certainly not state laws pertaining to the people of that state.

    Article III Section 2

    The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.



    Sometimes they do better than other times. With Presser and Cruishank they were a bunch of turkeys. (Although tying the right to assemble to the literal words of the phrase, "to petition the government" was an interesting way of looking at things.)
    Interesting that you want to provide total control to the Court yet you fail to respect the opinions with which you disagree.

    The Supreme Court does not trump the Legislative and Executive branches.

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    NY gun laws do reflect the will of the NY people

    Quote Originally Posted by concealed View Post

    Now your example of NY and the CC law implies the government truly represents the will of the people. I do not believe that. I am not sure politicians as a whole always represent their constituents. That is the original reason I started this thread.
    I think NY gun laws actually do reflect the will of NY voters. The problem is that there are those who would ignore the protections we were given in the BOR and argue vigorously that these shouldn't apply to the minority in NY, who like us, think there is an inherent almost deity given right to keep arms for self protection. In other words, that only majority rule counts and minority rights should never receive protection from the courts.

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    How Do We Do Know

    How do we know that the majority of voters want that restriction on guns. Not doubting you, just wondering how we know that. Has this been on the ballot?
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    We are way off the topic now. Lets return to it. Steele has just called for the resignation of the whole RNC Top Officials. Who do you believe he would like to replace them with? You must remember that he is a former Dem. I would bet that he wants to fill these positions with more liberal members. You may not like third party politics, but it may have to become an option if you want to keep any Gun Rights.

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    How do we know...

    Quote Originally Posted by concealed View Post
    How do we know that the majority of voters want that restriction on guns. Not doubting you, just wondering how we know that. Has this been on the ballot?
    We don't really know, but it is implicit in the fact that they voted for the people who passed those laws. If we start to think that the votes in legislatures are NOT reflections of the voter's will, then we surely can not trust SD's approach to letting legislatures make decisions and then living with the outcome, can we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    We don't really know, but it is implicit in the fact that they voted for the people who passed those laws. If we start to think that the votes in legislatures are NOT reflections of the voter's will, then we surely can not trust SD's approach to letting legislatures make decisions and then living with the outcome, can we?
    My legislation sure does not support my views. My Senators, House of Representative , and governor are all anti-gun, but it appears 2A is not high on other Virginians list. Can you say Democrats?
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    SD's Senators seem to have voted against his wishes too. They both voted the same as mine. Holder was confirmed.

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    The Republican Party is dead but it's just that nobody has closed the eyelids and placed copper pennies to cover the eyes of the corpse yet.
    The two party system is effectively deceased with the implementation of the "Stimulus" package which is in reality a Democratic Job Patronage Package - next comes amnesty for the illegals who will all vote Dem and that buries the Republican Party for decades.
    Bye Bye. Game Over.

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    next comes amnesty for the illegals who will all vote Dem and that buries the Republican Party
    Have you been reading their play book?


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard

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    No death certificate yet

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    The Republican Party is dead but it's just that nobody has closed the eyelids and placed copper pennies to cover the eyes of the corpse yet.
    The two party system is effectively deceased with the implementation of the "Stimulus" package which is in reality a Democratic Job Patronage Package - next comes amnesty for the illegals who will all vote Dem and that buries the Republican Party for decades.
    Bye Bye. Game Over.
    It isn't dead yet, but it will remain in bad shape until it purges its ranks of the extreme fringes and refocuses on a responsible form of economic conservatism.

    Republican stalwarts of the recent past such as the late Governor and VP Rockefeller, Senator Javitz, and even Richard Nixon, would be appalled by some of what passes for Republican ideology these days. I don't even think Barry Goldwater would recognize (certainly not endorse) some of the stuff coming out of the mouths of a Malkin or a Savage, or that awful lady with a long neck and an outlandish mouth who appears on Fox too frequently. He maintained a much more gentlemanly persona.

    Republicans weren't the party of unfettered state's rights, until very recently. (They were proudly the party of Lincoln.) They didn't oppose science, until very recently. They didn't oppose individual rights, until recently, and moreover would not have tolerated the like of a David Duke in their ranks, until recently. And they didn't advocate for the destruction of our economy by fostering the movement of jobs and capital overseas, to our detriment, until recently.

    When they straighten out their priorities, and when they find a spokesperson who doesn't come across as a know nothing, they will come back.

    In fact, they must come back, because our country can not operate well without an effective two party balance and counterbalance. I think we just saw that from 2001-2007. And we might see a repeat in the next two years.

    Most Americans are moderate centrists. And that is where a political party must be if it is to have any hope of winning elections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Most Americans are moderate centrists. And that is where a political party must be if it is to have any hope of winning elections.
    It's funny you mention that, since historically genuine conservatism wins elections, no matter what letter is next to the person running for office. The problem with genuine conservatism is that nobody practices what they preach once they're in office, so people wrongly associated their actions with the conservative theme they ran on.

    The Republican Party has two choices if it wants to survive as its own party: yield to a new classical liberal or conservative party, or take back either mantle themselves. In both cases, it needs to sever its religious ties and quit bogging itself with stupid wedge issues. The "issue of guns" might be one of the few that ought to remain highlighted, given its connection with the national constitution and nearly all state constitutions.


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