"Issue isn't gun rights" -- "right for churches to set their own rules"

This is a discussion on "Issue isn't gun rights" -- "right for churches to set their own rules" within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; IMHO -- I think it is both . The Associated Press: Ark. pastors debate merits of allowing hidden guns Ark. pastors debate merits of allowing ...

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Thread: "Issue isn't gun rights" -- "right for churches to set their own rules"

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    "Issue isn't gun rights" -- "right for churches to set their own rules"

    IMHO -- I think it is both.

    The Associated Press: Ark. pastors debate merits of allowing hidden guns

    Ark. pastors debate merits of allowing hidden guns
    By DANIEL SHEA – 7 hours ago

    LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — Arkansas pastors may soon have to worry about more than their flocks' spiritual battles. After a number of shootings in churches nationwide, should congregants be allowed to bring concealed weapons into their sanctuaries?

    Under current Arkansas law, holders of concealed weapons permits can take their guns anywhere they want except bars and houses of worship. A bill in the state Senate would let churches decide for themselves whether weapons should be allowed.

    "I believe it would disturb the sanctity and tranquility of church" said Pastor John Phillips, a bill opponent who was shot twice in the back as he finished a service 23 years ago. If a church opts out, "Do you want ushers to stop you at the door and frisk you?"

    The bill's supporters say the issue isn't gun rights but a constitutionally protected right for churches to set their own rules. Opponents say worshippers should be allowed to pray without worrying whether the person next to them is armed.

    Nathan Petty, a pastor at Beech Grove Baptist Church in Fordyce, has presented to legislators a petition from 40 preachers who support the bill.

    "It's not about gun rights, it's about church rights," Petty said. "Is it right for the state to make that decision for the church?"

    Phillips said there could have been carnage at his Ward Chapel Church in Little Rock if someone else had been armed when he was attacked by a parishioner's relative for a still-unknown reason.

    "People are not going to react the way they think they're going to react in the heat of the moment. It was utter chaos when I was shot," said Phillips, who still carries one of the bullets in his body.

    The bill, by Republican Rep. Beverly Pyle, passed the House on Wednesday and is pending before a Senate committee.

    Grant Exton, the executive director of the Arkansas Concealed Carry Association, said allowing concealed weapons would not make churches more likely to have volatile situations — but adds that that is not his point.

    "It's a problem of (the government) telling churches what to do in an area of moral issue, where that should be none of their business," Exton said. Of 48 states that allow concealed carry, 42 let churches make the decision, Exton said.

    "We have the government in an area that it shouldn't be," he said.

    If the current law is not changed, it is subject to a challenge on constitutional grounds, said John DiPippa, the interim dean at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock School of Law.

    A law prohibiting guns from places of worship is similar to a law requiring that churches permit guns, because the government is forcing a decision on a religious institution based on moral grounds, he said. "On the religious argument, you could make the same claim in both directions."

    Religious leaders have a responsibility to protect their congregations both spiritually and physically, said Mark DeYmaz, a pastor at Mosaic Church in Little Rock. He opposes allowing guns in churches but said each religious establishment must decide for itself.

    "A good shepherd would not allow a wolf near his flock," said DeYmaz, whose church is located in one of the city's tougher areas.

    After a man in Colorado went on a shooting spree at two religious facilities in 2007, DeYmaz' community established "the Mosaic Watchmen," a group of ushers trained in security measures but designed to uphold the church's image as a sacred place — not an armed church.

    "We're there to be a light in the community, and we don't like the image that would give us," DeYmaz said.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Balancing property rights with civil rights. And, it must be balanced. One cannot be made to fleece the other out of existence, else we'll be far worse off.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    Distinguished Member Array C9H13NO3's Avatar
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    I've never understood why the law can ban carry in churches. It's not a government organization. It's a private organization, and even a "business" if you will...and should be governed by the same rules. If a state has no provisions for legal signage, the church shouldn't be allowed to say you can or can't carry, just like any other business. If the state allows regular businesses to choose, then churches should also be able to choose.
    -Ryan

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

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    The report states that churches would be given the choice to refuse weapons in their sanctuary. So why oppose the bill? I don't get it. The pastors in the article who are vocally against it . . . why not just simply say, "Fine, do what you want. But it won't be allowed here."

    Why force their ideas on every church in the whole state?

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    why not just simply say,Fine, do what you want. But it won't be allowed here
    Because that would make too much sense and it would be too easy.

    Some Pastors are some of the loudest sheep in the herd. They blaaaa about this and they bleeeet that and they lead their herd of sheeple right of the edge of the cliff.

    On the other hand, many of the Pastors in this area are smart enough to understand that all the good intent in the world wont stop someone with a gun, and they choose to arm themselves.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    The anti arguments in the article are the exact same, naive, stupid comments made all the time with issues like this. It is unfortunate that someone people just don't get it, and probably never will. And since their argument lacks any logic and is purely-emotional based, it'll appeal to many as well... especially those who believe their pastor can do no wrong and accepts everything he says at face value without verifying it themselves.

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    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Well as a pastor I think it best that we assume that everyone has good intentions and a brain in their head...even the pastors who are arguing against this bill. While I disagree with them it is their Constitutional right to hold their opinion.

    I couldn't agree more that any church in AR that didn't want guns on campus could simply post a sign and viola! All the good guys will leave their weapons at home. (or more likely in the car)

    Here in AZ we are one of the 32 states that allow churches to decide for themselves. At ours we do not post (we have a security team and several conscientious citizens who carry); however, if someone came in OC I would ask them very politely to either CC if they had their permit or leave it in the car for the people who wouldn't be comfortable. I wouldn't make a stink about it at all, but would let him or her know that there were plenty of LEO and CCW around to make any BG's life miserable. Heck, I would even be willing to "check" the firearm for him or her and keep it while they were at church!

    Now granted, what works at our church of 160-180 will probably not work at a megachurch (let alone at a superchurch) in terms of personal touch...then again I am at a church this size because of the family and community environment, so I like it that way.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul34 View Post
    The anti arguments in the article are the exact same, naive, stupid comments made all the time with issues like this. It is unfortunate that someone people just don't get it, and probably never will. And since their argument lacks any logic and is purely-emotional based, it'll appeal to many as well... especially those who believe their pastor can do no wrong and accepts everything he says at face value without verifying it themselves.
    Man, I need one of them churches! Of course, I suspect that the chances of there actually being any of those churches is exactly slim and none.

    Anyway, yes, the arguments are the same, just as naive and uninformed as we hear everywhere else.

    OTOH, some of us (me) didn't get it until not that long ago.
    So, there is hope for at least some.
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    "People are not going to react the way they think they're going to react in the heat of the moment. It was utter chaos when I was shot," said Phillips, who still carries one of the bullets in his body.
    Is the good preacher practicing transference?
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    ...
    Religious leaders have a responsibility to protect their congregations both spiritually and physically, said Mark DeYmaz, a pastor at Mosaic Church in Little Rock. He opposes allowing guns in churches but said each religious establishment must decide for itself.

    "A good shepherd would not allow a wolf near his flock," said DeYmaz, whose church is located in one of the city's tougher areas.
    I don't get it - the pastor is opposed to allowing the wolves near his flock, but he won't allow the flock the right of self defense. Something wrong with that somewhere.
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    VIP Member Array Ridgeline's Avatar
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    Botton line y'all it should be the right of the church to decide if one can or shall not carry in a given church. If the church has made the decision "no" it should be noted as such at each entrance and the fellowship well advised as to that fact ... if you have a problem not being allowed to carry (as I do) I would find a church were it isn't a problem and that I agree with there teachings and get hooked up. It should NOT be the states or federal goverments call for any private business including a church. Just my .02 cents, from a ministers perspective.
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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    I know several pastors that would not like it being restricted, as they conceal carry.

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    Distinguished Member Array Gunnutty's Avatar
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    As a pastor in AR. I hope this bill will pass. I do not believe the government should dictate policy for us as a church. I will do what is necessary to protect myself and my congregation.
    In the Old testament David carried a sling, today it is a pistol.
    We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!

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    Question What conflict?

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Balancing property rights with civil rights. And, it must be balanced. One cannot be made to fleece the other out of existence, else we'll be far worse off.


    By both, I was not speaking to property rights vs. civil rights.

    The Pastors and congregations that are currently prohibited from carry are being denied both their civil rights and their property rights.

    Changing the law to free them doesn't fleece any right out of existence.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

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    I find the different places states ban to be so illogical. In Indiana, we can carry in bars and churches, but not in schools or the statehouse. Arkansas is the opposite? Other states ban weapons from sports venues and hospitals.

    I'll be carrying on stage at church tomorrow, as I do recognize the fact that a good shepherd carries a staff, and isn't afraid to use it to defend the flock. Not ironically, our devotion last night was on shepherds and the enormous responsibility that they have for caring for each and every sheep. In biblical times, each head was very valuable because of it's wool, milk, and meat. As such, a good shepherd couldn't allow predators to so much as injure a single member of the flock.
    "Lord, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am."

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