BATFE called out.

BATFE called out.

This is a discussion on BATFE called out. within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Some folks might remember the furore back when this stuff went down - the NRA has been pursuing this pretty actively it seems. BATFE ABUSE ...

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Thread: BATFE called out.

  1. #1
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    BATFE called out.

    Some folks might remember the furore back when this stuff went down - the NRA has been pursuing this pretty actively it seems.
    BATFE ABUSE AT RICHMOND, VA GUN SHOWS


    On February 15, the U.S. House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime,
    Terrorism and Homeland Security will hold an oversight hearing (the
    first of three BATFE-related hearings) to investigate apparent
    wrongdoing by BATFE at a Richmond, VA gun show last August.



    In 2004-05, a troubling pattern emerged at a number of Richmond, VA-area
    gun shows, where hundreds of BATFE agents and state and local police
    staked out local shows. Immediately upon learning of these incidents,
    NRA began investigating and working to ensure congressional oversight
    hearings would be held to determine any wrongdoing and ensure BATFE was
    not overstepping its bounds or violating the law.



    BATFE agents copied lawful gun purchase transaction records and provided
    this information to local police officers, who in turn conducted
    "residency checks." Federal law prohibits the release of this
    information except in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation.
    The information provided to local police prompted multiple instances of
    officers showing up at the homes of those who lawfully purchased
    firearms from licensed dealers. When the lawful purchasers were not at
    home, agents questioned family members (for example, inquiring of a wife
    if she knew her husband was at a gun show and/or had purchased a
    firearm) or their neighbors. In other cases, reports surfaced of lawful
    gun owners and holders of valid carry permits having their firearms
    confiscated.



    Those interested in watching the hearing online may do so at
    http://judiciary.house.gov/schedule.aspx. The hearing is scheduled to
    begin at approximately 4:00 p.m. on Wednesday, February 15.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    i tell ya if the ATF were at the gun show i was tonight they really must be out of stuff to do because this show sucked

  3. #3
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    Jeez, makes it harder to buy a gun and not tell the wife too. LOL. too bad the ATF doesn't have anything better to do, like keeping illegals from bringing in cigarettes from Mexico.
    they have been at most of the gun shows I attended. I hear rumors they were attempting to talk sellers into illegal sales.

  4. #4
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Iv'e read (heard) about this on forums only, And I work in Richmond, Funny what makes the news and what dosen't. We started off this year with 9 murders in the first 11 days of the year. Every nite their is at least one story about a shooting. (usually more) They all are someone commiting a crime or very ignorant and shouldn't have had a gun in the first place. The story is always the same, some ones family member saying that guns shouldn't be allowed. Let that same person die in a single car accident and it still wouldn't be their fault, but no call to ban cars.

    I'll get down off of my soapbox and stop preaching to the choir, and get back to the topic.

    I havn't seen or heard anyhing about this in papers or on the local news. The gun shows here are actually in Henrico Co. Henrico is a nationally recognized county and knows it. I moved out of their years ago, they are also probably the biggest reason the NRA and other organizations had to help us get our SHALL ISSUE status. They are also one of the strictest when it comes to approvals. I have no doubt that the County police were more than ready to help out with this. Unfortuinatly, I still work here, but I did move out of here.

    If I hear anything on the news
    cough
    cough

    I'll post it for everyone, You guys will probably hear more and sooner then I will.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
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  5. #5
    VIP Member Array PatrioticRick's Avatar
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    Same ol government BS
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  6. #6
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    I went to a gunshow over the weekend in Little Rock where there was an increased presence by the police...in uniform and otherwise.

    Come to find out, right after I left the last gunshow I went to, they had 2 separate incidents involving theft. In the first one, an obvious gangbanger went in and stole a whole rack of rifles that were chained together. He just wadded them up and ran out the door with them. He never was found. Not long after that, serveral individuals were seen stealing handguns. They had been slipping them under their jackets and ferrying them over to another guy who was putting them in an athletic bag. When confronted by one fo the dealers, he too ran off and wasnt found. He had over a dozen handguns.

    While we were at the last show, they announced this over the P.A. several times along with the penaltys for attempting it.

    Im sure that this has been plastered all over the U.S.A. in informational notices, at least at the Police Depts. As a result, there will be more police at that gunshows, not to harrass people but to thwart any more theft.

    So if one happens to make out a BATFE agent or sees more than usual, it dosent automatically mean that they are there to harrass gunowners.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    I still don't see the point of making me unload my gun at the door if im carry that is a nice sign that basically tells ya if you are caught with a loaded gun ya gets a trip to jail

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    The people who run gun shows have every right to make a 'no loaded guns' rule for their show. You, as a consumer, have every right not to attend these shows.

    The last three shows I went to convinced me that it's not worth it. I can get better deals on guns working with a local gun shop, and I feel better helping him stay in business anyway. On ammo, accessories, etc., I find that I can buy online cheaper anyway.

    The BATFE seems to be having a bad month... they were slapped down on regulating model rocket engines (http://nar.org/NARfrompres.html), now they're taking punches on this gun show fiasco.

    Just a few days ago, there was some trouble over budget issues at the BATFE, as well:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...020501073.html

    Couldn't happen to a better group :)
    Liberty is an inherently offensive lifestyle. Living in a free society guarantees that each one of us will see our most cherished principles and beliefs questioned and in some cases mocked. It's worth it.

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    Senior Member Array Free American's Avatar
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    VCDL posted this on their site a couple of months ago and it made the Virginian Pilot. Not surprising that it didn't make too many papers, but I think Philip van Cleave has an "in" with the Pilot, he is commonly interviewed in it.
    They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Previously known as "cjm5874"

  10. #10
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    Agents erred at gun shows, official says

    Check this out,

    Basically sounds like, yeah we goofed, oops. It's for your own good.


    http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet...=1045855934842

    at least it didn't get lost, But I don't think anything will change.

    In case the link dosn't work,

    This was in the Richmond Times Dispatch.

    ========================================

    Agents erred at gun shows, official says
    But ATF defends its patrols at hearings on the Richmond events

    BY SEAN MUSSENDEN
    MEDIA GENERAL NEWS SERVICE Mar 1, 2006


    WASHINGTON -- Federal agents made mistakes while searching for illegal firearm sales at Richmond gun shows, a top federal law enforcement officer told congressional investigators yesterday.

    But the official also defended aggressive gun-show patrols conducted by Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents and local police, saying that they had prevented violent criminals from buying weapons.

    "We acknowledge that some techniques used in our Richmond operations were not implemented in a manner consistent with ATF's best practices," Michael Bouchard, assistant director of field operations for the agency, told the House judiciary subcommittee on crime.

    "However, we, along with our law enforcement partners, feel very strongly that our efforts at Richmond gun shows have reduced violent crime and made the streets of Virginia and America safer," he said.

    The subcommittee launched an investigation into police patrols at Richmond-area gun shows between 2004 and 2005 after attendees said officers harassed gun buyers. Show organizers complained about a large, visible police presence that, they said, scared away would-be buyers.

    ATF agents set up a command post at the show, increasing the number of visible police officers on site. Bouchard said moving the post from show grounds was one of the things his agents could have done differently.

    At a hearing two weeks ago, show organizers and attendees told the panel that police racially profiled gun buyers by targeting minorities. Bouchard called that allegation "totally false."

    Show organizers also complained that their buyers were subjected to an unfair level of scrutiny. In several cases, ATF agents or officers with city, county or state police were dispatched to talk with a buyers' relatives or neighbors to confirm an address listed on background check forms.

    Bouchard defended these residency checks as necessary to stopping illegal sales.

    ATF said it polices about one in 50 gun shows nationally. But it began working with Richmond, Henrico County and Virginia State Police after firearms purchased at local shows were routinely linked to local crimes. About 400 guns purchased at Richmond shows were used in crimes between 2002 and 2005.

    "There is a plague of violent crime in the city of Richmond," Richmond police Maj. David McCoy told the panel.

    In some cases, police had a difficult time tracing guns to criminals because the buyer had listed a false address.

    The false-address problem is not common nationwide, Bouchard said, but it was a particular problem at Richmond gun shows. He likened the practice to felons who scratch out the serial numbers on guns to mask their involvement in a crime.

    "Word had gotten out on the street and criminals were using bad addresses. . . . So, we had to tailor our approach because we saw that as a significant problem," he said.

    The 302 total residency checks conducted at Richmond shows between 2004 and 2005 turned up 47 people who had listed false addresses, he said.

    Subcommittee chairman Rep. Howard Coble, R-N.C., said he appreciated that ATF officials had worked to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. But he called the aggressive tactics heavy-handed.

    "It appears some mistakes were made . . . and hopefully they won't be repeated," Coble said.

    Annette Gelles, the organizer of an August show at the Richmond Raceway Complex, told the panel in mid-February that regular customers stopped coming because of the stepped-up enforcement. Gelles said yesterday that she hoped the spotlight on ATF gun show operations will prevent agents from being so aggressive in the future.

    "But I don't think just public attention alone is enough. I think Congress needs to do something to prevent this from happening again," she said in an interview.

    Coble said he had not decided whether laws regarding ATF oversight of gun shows needed to be revised.


    Sean Mussenden is a national correspondent in Media General's Washington bureau. E-mail him at smussenden@mediageneral.com
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  11. #11
    Member Array HighVelocity's Avatar
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    Angry

    "The 302 total residency checks conducted at Richmond shows between 2004 and 2005 turned up 47 people who had listed false addresses, he said."

    Yeah, and if you stop every car pulling into a Chuckie Cheese parking lot you're bound to catch a few folks with outstanding felony warrants. That doesn't mean you can do it.

  12. #12
    Member Array Bryan's Avatar
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    BATF is a political entity everything they do is politically motivated. You won't catch them owning up to anything they do.
    -Diplomacy: The art of saying nice dogie until you can find a rock.
    -The truth is a three edged sword.
    -Your brain is your primary weapon everything else is just a tool.
    -When the only tool you have is a hammer then everything starts to look like a nail.

  13. #13
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    I think I saw this little ditty on THR the other evening, and it's been running through my mind all day:

    "Oh, I wish I was a BATF Agent,
    that is what I'd truly like to be-e-e,
    cause if I was a BATF Agent,
    I could f*** with you and you couldn't f*** with me"

    I still can't believe this "agency" was allowed to exist after Waco...
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

    "They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper

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    "The 302 total residency checks conducted at Richmond shows between 2004 and 2005 turned up 47 people who had listed false addresses, he said."
    It's amazing how many will read that and think, "Well, they ended up catching people, so what they didn't wasn't so bad in the end, and I actually feel safer because of it." I think there's a lot of people who don't care if a law is broken if it doesn't affect them directly, or if it applies to something they are afraid of, like guns.

    The end does not justify the means.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  15. #15
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    The term Jack Booted Thugs is an apt one for BTAFE. I really think they are groomed and selected for their antifirearm anti liberty attitudes. They are the American Gestapo. Several years ago the head of the Marshal's service was asked what he thought of the idea of folding the BATF into the US MArshal's Service. Know what his reply was? Q: What do you get when you mix CLEAN water with DIRTY water? A: Dirty Water. That idea never went forward after that public comment.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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