MSNBC Article

MSNBC Article

This is a discussion on MSNBC Article within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Licensed to kill? Gunmen in killings had permits - Crime & courts- msnbc.com...

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    Senior Member Array rmilchman's Avatar
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    I saw this last night but wasn't sure if it had been posted here yet in the NY shooting thread or somewhere else. Amazing - Sure sounds to me like MSNBC is advocating stricter gun control! Not sure what 'control' they think would have stopped that shooting. I'll admit I did not read the whole article

    Gunmen in mass killings had permits
    Despite recent massacres, regulations aren’t getting any stricter


    updated 4:25 p.m. MT, Tues., April 7, 2009
    They had more in common than unleashing carnage — nearly every gunman in this monthlong series of mass killings was legally entitled to fire his weapons.

    So what does that say about the state of gun control laws in this country? One thing appears certain: the regulations aren't getting stricter. Many recent efforts to change weapons laws have been about easing them.

    Despite eight rampages that have claimed 57 lives since March 10, "it hasn't sparked any national goal to deal with this epidemic. In fact, it's going the other way," said Scott Vogel of the Freedom States Alliance, a gun control activist group.

    Even President Barack Obama has felt that sway. Last month, 65 House Democrats said they would block any attempt to resurrect an expired federal ban against assault weapons.

    'A long and divisive fight'
    The pro-gun Democrats, led by Rep. Mike Ross of Arkansas, wrote Attorney General Eric Holder saying they opposed not only a ban on military-style guns, but also efforts "to pass any similar law."

    Gun control issues would only produce "a long and divisive fight," they said, at a time when Congress should be focused on the roiling economy.

    A few states are trying to loosen gun restrictions. In the Texas Capitol — where legislators can carry guns — bills easily passed the Senate in recent weeks that would allow employees to bring weapons to work as long as they leave them locked in their cars, and let those packing heat off the legal hook if they walked into a bar that didn't have signs saying guns weren't allowed inside.

    The state also is considering allowing students licensed to carry a concealed weapon — there are about 300,000 such adults in Texas — to bring guns on campus.

    Kansas plans to put a measure on its 2010 ballot that would rewrite the state constitution to make gun ownership a personal, rather than collective, right. In Tennessee, lawmakers made progress this month toward allowing guns to be carried in state and local parks.

    ‘Who's going to stop them?’
    "I think you're seeing a continuing change of culture," Vogel said. "I think the gun lobby wants to take away any stigma to gun ownership. I think they feel emboldened, like who's going to stop them?"

    The National Rifle Association, the country's most powerful gun lobbying group, declined to comment this week on gun control laws. "Now is not the time to debate politics or discuss policy. It is time for families and communities to grieve and to heal," it said in a prepared statement.

    Groups such as Vogel's, and the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, say existing laws are already too weak — just look at the men who received gun permits, legally bought high-powered weapons, and then mowed down family, friends and total strangers in these past few weeks, they say.

    Joining their outrage was the U.S. Conference of Mayors. "How many more gun-related acts of violence must we experience before the nation's leaders will decide that it is time to act?" asked president Manuel Diaz, mayor of Miami.

    No way to prevent insane acts
    Gun enthusiasts say there is no way to prevent human beings from committing insane acts. Whether they have a gun permit or not.

    On Friday, a depressed and angry Jiverly Wong used a 9 mm and .45-caliber handgun to kill 13 immigrants and service center employees in Binghamton, N.Y., police said. Earlier that day, the ethnic Chinese immigrant from Vietnam mailed an envelope to a Syracuse television station. In it were his gun permit, photos of him smiling while hoisting shiny, big handguns, and his driver's license.

    Questions have been raised over the upstate New York gun permit issued to Wong in 1997. Two years later, he was reported to state police by an informer who claimed Wong was planning a bank heist to feed a crack-cocaine habit. Unlike other areas of the state, including New York City, Wong's Broome County permit did not have to be renewed.

    Broad discretion
    Local authorities, however, have broad discretion in reviewing and revoking such permits, according to legal experts. Especially when it comes to drug use, criminal behavior and violence.

    "In retrospect, this is probably not a guy who should have had a gun," said attorney Jeffrey Chamberlain, a former Rochester prosecutor and chief counsel to the New York State Police. "No one likes to see things fall through the cracks and it looks like this guy fell through the cracks."

    Binghamton police chief Joseph Zikuski said Tuesday that no robbery occurred and there was no merit to review Wong's gun permit.

    In New York City, gun permits are reissued every three years.

    Yet, regulations differ only slightly between states, Chamberlain said. "They're fairly typical — don't be a felon, don't be a drunk, don't beat your kids or your wife. Don't be so mentally unbalanced that you need be in an institution."

    ‘We've had guns for a very long time’
    To Chamberlain, the answer to gun violence lies not in stricter regulations, but in answering the question, "Why are we so tolerant of having guns in this country? The answer to that is historical. We've had guns for a very long time.

    "I can't think of any sweeping law change that would address that."

    To Vogel, the answer to why atrocities happen in places such as Binghamton, and before that Washington state and Santa Clara, Calif., lies in sheer numbers.

    The number 280 million, to be precise, the estimated total of every gun in this country.

    "When you have that many guns, those guns are going to be used in horrific ways," Vogel said. "There's just too many. Inevitably, somehow, some way, those weapons are going to be used in an egregious way."

    More on Gun Control http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11881780...1&st=1&sm=user
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

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    ‘We've had guns for a very long time’
    To Chamberlain, the answer to gun violence lies not in stricter regulations, but in answering the question, "Why are we so tolerant of having guns in this country? The answer to that is historical. We've had guns for a very long time.

    "I can't think of any sweeping law change that would address that."
    What a maroon. The only answer he can come up with is 'we've always done it this way.'

    How about...

    ...we have a God-given right enumerated in the Constitution of the United States?
    ...to have the ability to defend ourselves from criminals, the mentally defective due to drugs, alcohol or insanity, and tyrannical rulers (but I repeat myself)?
    ...there are over 300 million people in our country (some of them are even here legally-imagine that), some of whom refuse to follow the law in multiple areas of their lives and will therefore do whatever they want, including related to ownership and use of weapons, regardless of any well-intentioned but misguided laws?

    Mr. Chamberlain is a poster child for the plethora of the feeble-minded who are unable to hold or comprehend a logical thought.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

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    I was shocked that even the NRA is now backing more strict policy. They are talking about a mandated renewal process every 5-7 years. Right now in NY your license is good for life. But they are pushing because they are saying if this guy had to renew, his background check would have revealed his mental decline.

    I'm somewhat torn. I agree that a renewal process is not a bad idea, but I'm afraid just like everything else the states will abuse it to their advantage.

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    Then the guy would have built explosives and bombed the place. We need to figure out the root cause of the problem, quit blaming the tool.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

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    Same anti-gun/liberal 'toro feces'...different 'maroon'...so what's new.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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    "[n]early every gunman in this monthlong series of mass killings was legally entitled to fire his weapons."

    I guess I missed the part where, if you legally own a gun, you're "legally entitled" to fire it any whomever you want.

    No one needs to read past the first sentence of this liberal abomination.
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    Senior Member Array rmilchman's Avatar
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    Why have the renewal process involved with mental illness? What if he renewed today, and was diagnosed tomorrow. Waiting for the next renewal is too late.

    I know you guys are about shoot me, but here is my opinion. A centralized database that the medical community can submit names to of people they think are a danger to themselves or others. Have some kind of process running that compares this database against registered fire arms owners and if necessary the "system" informs local LEO.

    Yes this would force a national registration, but it would not make it open for query.

    I don't think there is any good solution, but we do need a solution we could all live with.

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    Member Array Firkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belltoller View Post
    "[n]early every gunman in this monthlong series of mass killings was legally entitled to fire his weapons."

    I guess I missed the part where, if you legally own a gun, you're "legally entitled" to fire it any whomever you want.

    No one needs to read past the first sentence of this liberal abomination.
    You beat me to it. I was going to point out the same thing. Legally owning and legally firing are two totally different things.

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    Member Array Firkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmilchman View Post
    Why have the renewal process involved with mental illness? What if he renewed today, and was diagnosed tomorrow. Waiting for the next renewal is too late.

    I know you guys are about shoot me, but here is my opinion. A centralized database that the medical community can submit names to of people they think are a danger to themselves or others. Have some kind of process running that compares this database against registered fire arms owners and if necessary the "system" informs local LEO.

    Yes this would force a national registration, but it would not make it open for query.

    I don't think there is any good solution, but we do need a solution we could all live with.
    In principle, a mental-health database is not a bad idea, but it is also open to the possibility of serious abuse. Who determines who is added to the database? Can one get off once one is added to it? What criteria is used to add someone to the database? Does some middle-school kid who, in a fit of anger, tells a classmate "I could kill you" get placed in such a database, etc.?

    I do not like the idea of firearms registration at all. History shows us that registration eventually leads to confiscation.

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    Member Array fatcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firkin View Post
    In principle, a mental-health database is not a bad idea, but it is also open to the possibility of serious abuse. Who determines who is added to the database? Can one get off once one is added to it? What criteria is used to add someone to the database? Does some middle-school kid who, in a fit of anger, tells a classmate "I could kill you" get placed in such a database, etc.?

    I do not like the idea of firearms registration at all. History shows us that registration eventually leads to confiscation.
    Yeah this is my problem with it too.

    Yes the concept of a mentally unstable database is a good idea. But as has been pointed out abuse of the system could be a problem.

    First off we know that most psychologists (sorry to offend) are morons who cannot do their job unless it applies to handing out pills. Second, we know that abuse in the current system exists, so giving the states more tools to restricts CCW permits for any reason will hit a small percentage of good people for no real reason.

    I think back to an SVU episode I saw where Stabler said he wished he could kill the perp. He ended up in all kinds of trouble for saying it, though he's never done it and never would without good reason. A simple statement by a sane person could be misinterpreted by some "mental health professional" and you could get your permit pulled.

    Of course that is not an exact representation of reality but you get the gist of it.

    Maybe a renewal process can work as it does in other states. I dunno but it sure looks like it is coming here in NY soon enough.

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    Senior Member Array rmilchman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firkin View Post
    In principle, a mental-health database is not a bad idea, but it is also open to the possibility of serious abuse. Who determines who is added to the database? Can one get off once one is added to it? What criteria is used to add someone to the database? Does some middle-school kid who, in a fit of anger, tells a classmate "I could kill you" get placed in such a database, etc.?

    I do not like the idea of firearms registration at all. History shows us that registration eventually leads to confiscation.

    Don't most states already know who has a firearm? I know in NJ I need a fire-arms ID card, in PA to CC you require a permit as in FL. I think federal law requires a background check at time of purchase. I'm sure this data is stored somewhere.


    There is no easy or all encompassing solution.

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    Member Array hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmilchman View Post
    Why have the renewal process involved with mental illness? What if he renewed today, and was diagnosed tomorrow. Waiting for the next renewal is too late.

    I know you guys are about shoot me, but here is my opinion. A centralized database that the medical community can submit names to of people they think are a danger to themselves or others. Have some kind of process running that compares this database against registered fire arms owners and if necessary the "system" informs local LEO.

    Yes this would force a national registration, but it would not make it open for query.

    I don't think there is any good solution, but we do need a solution we could all live with.


    forget it's a gun issue. Do you want to give the government more POWER.

    there is no good solution, live and let live is the best I can think of.
    if nasa didnt see it coming with that diaper lady.... "she was supposed to be one of the human top breeds" then I dont know who can. people will be people will be people, until we find a cure for being human.
    NO 3rd party disputes

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    Quote Originally Posted by hybrid View Post
    if nasa didnt see it coming with that diaper lady.... "she was supposed to be one of the human top breeds" then I dont know who can. people will be people will be people, until we find a cure for being human.
    An _EXCELLENT_ example and agreed 100%.

    BB gun, knife on ex-astronaut Nowak's list
    Supplies for ex-astronaut's trip among documents made public
    April 11, 2007

    ...Investigators say Nowak, 43, wore a diaper so she wouldn't have to stop to relieve herself as she drove more than 12 hours from Houston to Orlando. Nowak, a mission specialist during the shuttle Discovery's July flight, followed Shipman to the airport's long-term-parking Blue Lot. She tried to get into Shipman's car and doused her with pepper spray, police said.

    Documents released Tuesday show that Nowak had with her a 2-pound drilling hammer, a BB gun that resembled a handgun, an 8-inch folding knife and latex gloves.

    Last month, prosecutors charged Nowak with attempted kidnapping and burglary with an assault, which can be punishable by life in prison. She also was charged with misdemeanor battery....

    The whole story with images can be found at; BB gun, knife on ex-astronaut Nowak's list -- OrlandoSentinel.com
    If crazy people can get past NASA scan then why would persons reasonably believe that Joe Blow average can't keep it together just long enough to play sane and lie his way through a NICS check toward purchasing a firearm of any sort.

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  15. #15
    VIP Member Array AllAmerican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hybrid View Post
    if nasa didnt see it coming with that diaper lady.... "she was supposed to be one of the human top breeds" then I dont know who can. people will be people will be people, until we find a cure for being human.
    Bingo!

    The health database stuff is crap. Oh it sounds good but suppose you're going through a rough time and you decide to talk to someone about it.

    Next, you're mentally unstable and no longer allowed to protect yourself.
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