This is a discussion on Check out this anti... within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by guardian the criminal mind is not a culture, it' a need to have things, a need for power, a need to show ...
Criminals don't care if you think they are scum.
Why don't the Bristish society view all people with knives
as scum?? Just as if they carried a gun??
I mean thats his logic..
What your British friend said is pure crap. If they could get
guns over here in the UK, the criminals would use them...
honor? What honor is there in commiting crimes? Criminals
use any means they have at their desposal.
Watched a show the other night about knife violence in the
Uk. Had a kid 17 years old with 4 stab wounds. They said the
gang violence was so bad, that they could not cross the
street to buy cigarettes as it was in the other gangs territory.
One boy did and was stabbed..
They just can't get guns here. Google knife deaths UK and
look at the numbers.
You will hurt your brain if you think about this for to long. Maybe many years ago it could have made a difference by not praising guns and violence on tv and such. But it has been imbedded into our brains now and it is to late to change it. Even so... as JKAz said earlier, someone has always found a way to even the odds in there favour with some sort of weapon. Guns are just the new and improved club, spear, knife, ect.
"Anyone worth shooting, is probably worth shooting several times."
If this idiot ever has a close encounter with a real-life BG, he will be singing a different tune, or maybe playing a harp.
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
2) If you think of gun owners as scum, that is hate. It is based on an inanimate object. That's just weird and we are supposed to emulate that?
3) Brazen attitues about... fill in the blank. We (at least at the present) have the 1st amendment which allows free speech. What you are suggesting is thought control. Since we can't control that, the only other option is regulation, repression, propaganda, etc. To try to convince the criminals to change their attitudes about guns, we need to rob every American of their free speech and hope the criminals change their mind. Is that as crazy as it sounds?
4) Gun Free Zones - He's not even close. It is an advertisement to the wolves of society that unprotected victims congregate here. All the school shootings (America and abroad) prove this point. They are all gun free zones. If the zoning worked, then those shootings could not have happened.
Here is a question for him to answer: What do you do when a 250 lb rapist with a machete enters his house at 3:00am and starts molesting his teenage daughter? The rapist has no gun. Neither do you.
Now same scenario, only you have a 12 ga shotgun. Are you going to encourage him to change his culture, and hope he doesn't rape and possibly murder your little girl, or are you going to ask him to leave and emphasize your point with the business end of the 12 ga?
If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you will undoubtedly have the support of Paul.
Nope.Now same scenario, only you have a 12 ga shotgun. Are you going to encourage him to change his culture, and hope he doesn't rape and possibly murder your little girl, or are you going to ask him to leave and emphasize your point with the business end of the 12 ga?
No emphasis, no conversation.
It seems to me that their whole position assumes that the criminals give a rat's rectum about what we think of them. Perhaps criminals over there have serious self esteem issues that U.S. criminals are not afflicted with.
Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis
Obviously he has never attended a soccer game.
Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.
....Wait, I think Ive run into who the OP is dealing with, my response is differant now. After my dealings with him I finally said this, "We are against violence aswell, the kind done to us. We wish to stop it, you only with to defend the attacker in some misguided moral platatude that rewards violent offenders, and punish those that defend themselves."
I know not what this "overkill" means.
Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.
His error is in the underlying assumption that viewing the gun as a "dirty tool" is a correct cultural/ethical/moral worldview, when it most certainly is not. He wants the U.S. to change its "culture" to reflect his world view, which is that guns are "bad"; and he simply assumes that this worldview is correct and moral.
In fact, guns are completely amoral tools. Just like any tool, they can be used for "good" causes and they can be used for "bad" causes. A hammer can be used to drive the nails that result in a beautiful cabinet, or to bash someone's brains in. It isn't the tool--or the culture that supports the tool's existence--that is at fault. It is the user who chooses to use it for "bad."
Similarly a gun can be used to provide food for the table, simple entertainment/sport, or as a means of defending one's self or others from those who would cause harm. It can also be used to cause harm and commit crimes. It is not the gun or the culture that causes the harm/crime, it is the user.
If anything, guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens are tools for good. A handgun can give a small person an even or potentially superior chance against a large would-be murderer or rapist. Guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens can have a deterrent effect on crime--it has been documented several times that criminals will pick on targets that they believe to be "soft" and easy. If they have reason to think a person may be armed, they generally will pass them by, waiting for an "easier" target.
The UK poster has simply been brainwashed to believe his cultural perspective on guns is the "proper" or "correct" perspective when, in fact, it is a quite misinformed, uneducated, and ignorant worldview.
While I agree with all those that pointed out his labeling a gun as "dirty" (at least he got the tool part right) I would concentrate on his belief that there is honor among criminals. I truly believe that there is, but it doesn't fit our (or his) definition of honor. They gain honor by successfully and even unsuccessfully perpetrating crimes. They call it street cred over here and I'm sure there's a similar term in the UK.
And crime is, generally speaking, a narcissistic act. The perpetrator either doesn't know or doesn't care what effects their actions have on others, and are only interested in what they get out of the act. Whether it be money, possessions, or pleasure; it's all about them. If he thinks he can reason with and have his opinion change a true narcissist I wish him luck.
His belief that you can change someone with a big enough, long enough hug is unfortunate. I'm afraid one day he's going to walk up to someone, arms held wide, only to find that he's made it that much easier to slip the dagger in.
Last edited by lacrosse50; May 7th, 2009 at 07:56 PM. Reason: spelling, grammar
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
NRA Life Member
This is what he replied with:
So this same logic would apply to something like money? The fact that a country uses money for commerce would also actively encourage the theft of money? At what point is individual responsibility a factor. In a society that puts a value on the individual, it is the individual's responsibility to live a good and worthwhile life. If one decides to prey upon the forthright, then the criminal will bear the wrath of a country of individuals. Maybe in the UK, it truly is society's fault that crime exists, as there may not be any individuals to look up to as good examples in life.It is not about getting criminals to follow laws, criminals do though often follow a rule of conduct. If you can eraduicate the need for a gun from their mentality them you are already one up on them. When a culture actively encourages firearm possessions it is also doing so inadvertantly on the criminal fraternity.
To which the criminal would say, "Screw the honor, I've got your money and you're dead!" Since "you're dead," you just get to rot. The gun is simply a power tool to a criminal, to gain an advantage over a victim. Empower the citizen similarly and the criminal no longer has an advantage. Kind of like the Somali pirates and the defenseless ships they hijack. Ever read about a pirate takeover of a US Navy ship? Ever hear of pirates overwhelming Navy Seals? Guess not...It is not a black and white issue of laws or no laws. You have to understand that regardless of the laws overhere, when a person walks into a public place with a firearm they are deemed as nothing but scum, there is no honour or privelage for them to have they are nothing but some of the lowest form of human life.This attitude is implemented throughout society here, some of the innercity gangs are admittedly adopting the US attitude where having a gun makes you king, but the general consencus of things including that of the criminal element is that a gun is a dirty tool that will only attract you trouble, there is no honour.
Can't make that stretch as a terrorist is (however remotely) a human who can make decisions. Guns, in public or private, are inanimate objects unable to do anything by themselves. They rely on humans to do anything. Therefore, it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the individual in control of the gun to manage the gun in a way that respects the values in society.Try and understand this process with this way of thinking; a terrorist endangers society. How do you feel about terrorists! ...Now change the terrorist concept to one of guns in public and you might start to understand the difference in attitudes.
Again, the argument is trying to put some value on a criminal's sense of honor. There is none. Nor does the criminal care. The criminal is a predator who hunts for weaker prey to victimize. The criminal is both cowardly and heartless, and places no value on either his or your life. Trying to shame a criminal into changing his ways is less effective than shaming a drug addict into not shooting heroin or an alcoholic into not having that third drink.The US does not need to change its gun laws, it does not need to change its gun control, it needs to change its gun culture. You cant fight this culture, because as hard as you fight it, it will always fight back. So how do you go about telling the criminals that they dont need guns? How do you tell the murderers that pulling that trigger was not the easy option? How do you tell the kid walking into a school/mall whilst intent to do harm that his actions will not be the making of him, that the actions are immoral and have no honour? ......tbh when I see the gun advocation or the continued sensationalism around guns, all that is happening is you encourage these problems, this brazen attitude that feeds you also feeds them. You have "Firearm Advocate!" in your user title, I just hope you realise that by advocating firearms in one walk of life you advocate them in all walks of life and that includes when the devil has his finger at the trigger.
And in case you haven't figured it out, you're not going to change the mindset of the mass school / mall killer who plans on suicide to finish the event. Exactly WHY would that person even care to change? Their only care is to make as big a bloodbath as possible, at society's expense, and then kill themselves. No punishment, no rehabilitation, no psychoanalyzing. If they had any self-worth, they would have moved to a point where they would not feel the need to harm others. Unfortunately, they are not fixable.
You are also saying to the criminal that this is a place of no resistance. Enter and do your evil without challenge. Should the person who values his own life, and the lives of his family and friends, wish to take personal responsibility for that safekeeping, who are you to not allow the right to self-preservation? If you want to be a victim, that is your right. You, however, do not have the right to force me to be a victim.Returning to the OP, by having a sign on a wall saying "Gun free zone" you are basically saying that this area is designated safe from guns do not go and spoil the party because if you do then you really are scum.