May 6th, 2009 08:39 PM
Check out this anti...
And he's from the UK as well
I got in to a debate with a guy from the UK about guns on another political forum...
I've held my own until this...
I made a comment like this:
He responded with this... and I have no clue how to address it, and I'm hoping my fellow gun lovers out there can help me tackle this one.
We already have systems in place to prevent criminals from getting guns. They don't follow those laws, what makes you think that they will suddenly follow more? Yet they still get them on the black market smuggled from Mexico or other third world nations or stolen.
This is what he replied with:
How do you argue that
It is not about getting criminals to follow laws, criminals do though often follow a rule of conduct. If you can eraduicate the need for a gun from their mentality them you are already one up on them. When a culture actively encourages firearm possessions it is also doing so inadvertantly on the criminal fraternity.
It is not a black and white issue of laws or no laws. You have to understand that regardless of the laws overhere, when a person walks into a public place with a firearm they are deemed as nothing but scum, there is no honour or privelage for them to have they are nothing but some of the lowest form of human life.This attitude is implemented throughout society here, some of the innercity gangs are admittedly adopting the US attitude where having a gun makes you king, but the general consencus of things including that of the criminal element is that a gun is a dirty tool that will only attract you trouble, there is no honour.
Try and understand this process with this way of thinking; a terrorist endangers society. How do you feel about terrorists! ...Now change the terrorist concept to one of guns in public and you might start to understand the difference in attitudes.
The US does not need to change its gun laws, it does not need to change its gun control, it needs to change its gun culture. You cant fight this culture, because as hard as you fight it, it will always fight back. So how do you go about telling the criminals that they dont need guns? How do you tell the murderers that pulling that trigger was not the easy option? How do you tell the kid walking into a school/mall whilst intent to do harm that his actions will not be the making of him, that the actions are immoral and have no honour? ......tbh when I see the gun advocation or the continued sensationalism around guns, all that is happening is you encourage these problems, this brazen attitude that feeds you also feeds them. You have "Firearm Advocate!" in your user title, I just hope you realise that by advocating firearms in one walk of life you advocate them in all walks of life and that includes when the devil has his finger at the trigger.
Returning to the OP, by having a sign on a wall saying "Gun free zone" you are basically saying that this area is designated safe from guns do not go and spoil the party because if you do then you really are scum.
Any help would be nice. One liners preferable, but other comments are welcome.
May 6th, 2009 08:52 PM
Here's the flaw that I see:
The U.K. has criminals (and terrorists). So, it hasn't worked out so well for them. The only thing the U.K. has been successful with is disarming law-abiding citizens. The criminals still have weapons.
If you can eraduicate the need for a gun from their mentality them you are already one up on them. When a culture actively encourages firearm possessions it is also doing so inadvertantly on the criminal fraternity.
The U.K. citizen is a utopian.
Utopia doesn't exist and never will.
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. — Winston Churchill
May 6th, 2009 08:57 PM
Ask if promoting a healthy happy marriage is the same as promoting rape and other sexual abuse. Since they are similar activities, one legal/moral, and one quite illegal/imoral.
Also. For you, I give this advice I hear often myself.
"Never fight with an idiot. First they will bring you down to their level, then beat you with experiance."
Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.
May 6th, 2009 09:08 PM
Engaging in conversational debate with this 'maroon' for a few minutes will do only one thing...waste a few minutes of you time.
You are not going to get anywhere trying to answer questions from this doofus...OMOYMV
The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member[/B]
May 6th, 2009 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Pro2A
You do not argue with that, he is making a very sound point, a point that has no argumentative backlash to it. He's playing the game that you can change a culture, change the culture and you change the criminal mind, sorry it doesn't work that way. The criminal mind is not a culture, it' a need to have things, a need for power, a need to show it can be done and most of the time, in a destructive manner follows it. That is not a culture, that is a sickness for lack of a better word.
The criminal mind doesn't worry about cultures or being thought of as a scum bag or a dirty person, he's trying to say they do, sorry, that's not in their mind set no matter how much he wants to make himself believe that.
"I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"
May 6th, 2009 09:24 PM
That mentality is typical of Brits that find it easier to demonize an object rather than an action.
Its a losing battle, one that I wouldn't waste my time with.
People like him are the very reason that we left that worthless rock called Britian a few hundred years ago and started another country...one where some independently thinking people cut the chains of bondage and started what grew to be the best country in the world.
Close the conversation and tell him to go polish the shoes of the Queen with his tongue,because that is where he belongs, on his knees bowing in complete servitude with all the honor that he can muster up.
I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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May 6th, 2009 09:33 PM
The US does not need to change its gun
laws, it does not need to change its gun
control, it needs to change its gun
culture. You cant fight this culture, because as hard as you fight it, it will always fight back. So how do you go about telling the criminals that they dont need guns? How do you tell the murderers that pulling that trigger was not the easy option? How do you tell the kid walking into a school/mall whilst intent to do harm that his actions will not be the making of him, that the actions are immoral and have no honour?
"The UK does not need to change its violence laws, it does not need to change its violence control, it needs to change its violence culture. You can't fight this culture, because as hard as you fight it, it will always fight back. So how do you go about telling the criminals that they dont need violence? So how do you go about telling the criminals that pulling that trigger/knifing that woman/striking that man was not the easy option? How do you tell the kid walking into the school/mall whilst intent to do harm that his actions will not be the making of him, that the actions are immoral and have no honour?"
The bottom line is that it is never about the inanimate object. Inanimate objects don't think, don't act, don't have honor or shame, morals or ethics. They are inanimate. People think, act, have honor or shame, morals or ethics. Cars don't run people down, or take them to the hospital to save their lives. People do.
And when any nation confuses this fact, it will always be confused about the source of actions which some consider illegal.
Until the culture says that life is sacred, and liberty is to valued, and the pursuit of happiness are among the highest aims of humankind, and that violence is immoral and shameful for the above reasons, nothing will change. There will be violence. It does not matter whether it is a firearm or a knife or a bat or a tire iron or a fist.
The problem is a culture devoid of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Strip that from a culture and there is no wonder that there is violence, in whatever form it presents itself.
Last edited by miklcolt45; May 6th, 2009 at 09:34 PM.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
May 6th, 2009 09:52 PM
I'd ask him how that naivete is working out for him, and offer to drop him off in my city for the night -- alone and unarmed.
Just a thought.
Actually, I have no idea how to respond to that. I don't suffer fools kindly, and willful ignorance is right up there on my list of foolish behavior.
Don't frisk me, I am the weapon.
Sig Sauer P239 DAK (9mm)
NRA Member & Pistol Instructor
May 6th, 2009 09:55 PM
Criminals don't care about honor or what civilized people hold as honorable and are by definition immoral, so why would they change their mentality about firearms - how does someone change a criminal's mentality about firearms? They don't value human life, so why would they care where on the scale someone else thinks they are. Why would they care about not "spoiling the party"? - that is their intent to begin with. You [the other poster] are treating life as a game of "it" with a safe base, when in reality it's no game, there is no safe base, and forgetting this can end the "game" for you permanently.
The UK has failed miserably with their attempts at changing laws and attitudes about guns. Restricting firearms didn't work, so airguns are restricted, that didn't work so toy guns were restricted, that still didn't work so knives are/will be restricted. The UK is the last place anyone should look to for an example as far as ending criminal violence. That is why there is a new movement to regain gun rights.
May 7th, 2009 12:12 AM
How many terrorist bombs have gone off in the UK, vs here ?
He's an idiot. I've dealt with many criminals, murderers, etc. They use a gun to threaten, intimidate and kill... for illegal means. Many have no conscience nor regard for those that they have killed. We use buns to defend, protect, and survive..... so they can't succeed in those endeavors and to not be one of their vicitims He needs to understand the "moral" difference.
Or, has that been lost in the UK as well ?
May 7th, 2009 12:29 AM
During the first week of the Olympics, an American was murdered by a local Chinese man. China has tough gun laws. It's obviously not about the guns, since the American was stabbed. Take away the knife, you'll get beat with a club. Take away the club, you'll get hit with a rock...
A BG will always find a way to get what he wants.
In the beginning...Cain slew Abel.
My guns will keep me away from the oppression your friend lives under. I mean, that's why we're here (USA) right??
Just my ramblings.
May 7th, 2009 12:29 AM
After reading the first part of the statement he made my eyes just glazed over at the massive amounts of assumptions and ethical moral utopian delusions. I still cant actually do more then skim it with out my mind just trying to shut down from the sheer delusion of the cultural change Shicacaka.
My reply is to his argument would be is
"Show the scientific data to prove your point, not an assumption laiden theory."
I know not what this "overkill" means.
Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.
May 7th, 2009 12:35 AM
A gun is a tool. A criminal uses that tool to intimidate, overpower, and destroy those weaker than himself. A citizen such as you or I, uses that same tool to prevent him from doing those things to us. It is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. Crime will not go away if guns do.
And to even begin to think you can change the "culture" or "mindset" of BG's is naive to a degree that is not commonly seen even here on the internet.
Or you can just ask him if he has had to register his steak knives yet?
"I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything!" Bart Simpson
May 7th, 2009 12:57 AM
That's as silly and naive as saying "well look... we don't need to treat criminals more harshly; what we need to do is to say that murder and rape are unacceptable."
Well, aren't they? Where in the US such actions acceptable? And yet it still happens. The same things happen in the UK, far more than their citizens are even aware of (many convictions go through as manslaughters, which don't get added to the murder count; much violent crime is committed by the juvenile set in the UK, and don't get counted AT ALL in Home Office statistics).
Quite frankly, our "gun culture" does not suddenly make it acceptable for a criminal to own or want to own or carry a firearm. Part of the "gun culture" in the US is empowering the citizen to defend him or herself against a criminal, by presenting the firearm or even using it to kill (take a life) of the criminal. We do not "value" criminals like they do in the UK. Who is the most common civilian gunowner in the US? Don't say hunter because that is not correct. Indeed, hunters are a minority in America's gunowners (not to say hunting is not common; what I mean is that there aren't as many people who believe firearms are ONLY for hunting). Many more people buy guns for self defense. Also, the victim is the victim in most places in the US... not the aggressor.
He writes well, but unfortunately, it is naivete at its best. Would I love to see all these people who commit crimes in this country "learn" that such behavior is "shameful"? Of course! But we've had such attitudes for a LONG time. In fact, all throughout organized human civilization, we've had concepts of law and order, and have always had a segment of the population who decide to run afoul of not only laws, but notions of decency and fundamental, interpersonal moralities held by the society in which they operate.
What would you say is considered to be one of most despicable crimes in our society? How about child molestation? Production of child pornography? Yet just take a look at how many convicted pedophiles there are out there. Our modern society greatly, and rightly, detests sexual violence such as rape. Yet no one is going to pretend that rape doesn't happen - and not just by the "criminal element," but it happens at college parties by possibly the guy who works in the next cubicle over from you and even has a family. I guess our social education didn't work on him?
Here's the reality of the situation. I would love for people to take on a view similar to mine; such crimes are not acceptable. However, for whatever reason, they will not accept a proposition like that. I am truly sorry they will not; however, if I am the one under attack, I have no choice.
They had a choice - what choice do I have as a victim? The only one I have is to try to NOT become a victim. A gun allows me to do that with significantly more effectiveness and safety to myself, especially against the guy who got his gun from some guy's car trunk in the city. He doesn't care that he's considered disgusting or scum of the planet by society. That's why he's a criminal - to put it colloquially, he doesn't give a **** what you think about him.
He is right in that the problem is with the user... but such users are not enabled by the law-abiding segment. They are part of the criminal culture. Such culture doesn't change. Go to any society, any language, any culture; the criminals operate more or less with the same mindset and attitudes. If they could get guns, of course they would use guns. And really, you can get guns in any society on this Earth, regardless of laws. The only thing that prevents some people from getting guns is that the price of the black market weapon may be too high.
I do at least appreciate his willingness to discuss the situation and admit that laws do nothing to disarm the criminal element. However, as I have stated, I feel he is greatly misguided in his belief that disarming one's self, if said self is not a criminal, will encourage the violent bloke behind that corner over there to put away his knife or pistol. It won't happen.
I believe that this is the theory behind the fact that regular UK police do not carry guns. Not even a knife, taser, or even pepper spray. NOTHING. All they have is a radio. However, they wear a bullet resistant or a stab resistant vest when in the past, they never did. They have more armed divisions now than ever before. More street cops carry pistols than ever before. What happened?
Why not disarm ALL the police? I mean, if only we got rid of the "culture of guns" from the police, then the criminals might see its not cool, and so put down their guns. While we're at it, will the Royal Marines be willing to put down their rifles in Afghanistan? Maybe the Taliban will get the message that its not cool to carry guns and put theirs down too! (I hope you can detect my sarcasm in the last paragraph here).
Again, however, I do compliment the British gentleman for at least engaging in a somewhat intellectual discussion with you. The classic UK citizen often is like a broken record when you start talking about guns (unfortunately, so are many US citizens).
May 7th, 2009 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by miklcolt45
It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.
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