Walter Mitty's Second Amendment

This is a discussion on Walter Mitty's Second Amendment within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by F350 OK perhaps you can assist me here o great learned one.....Where in the constitution is the federal government granted authority over ...

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Thread: Walter Mitty's Second Amendment

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    OK perhaps you can assist me here o great learned one.....Where in the constitution is the federal government granted authority over local education, health care, land use, private companies or for the couple dozen "czars" recently apointed to regulate almost every aspect of our lives. I fail to find any mention of this in Artical I section 8 (the Enumerated Powers Clause) and it would appear to be precluded by the 10th amendment

    To Whit....
    Yes, I would be very interested is seeing where that power is located.
    Is it now possible to pick and chose what parts we want to fallow and what parts we can ignore. From my point of view that is exactly what our elected representatives have been doing for many cycles now.
    this is not a finger pointing at the current administration.

    I am pointing the finger at a great many of the preceding administrations, those in Congress and those in the House. We the people have been asleep at the wheel and need to wake up.
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
    There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.

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  3. #17
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    Public debate re:tbrenke

    Quote Originally Posted by tbrenke View Post
    This statment I agree with. A healthy public debate I agree with.
    Where was that on the stimulas package?
    Where was that on the Cap and trade?
    How can there be anything like that on bills that are amended just hours prior to a vote?
    There is of course a big difference between public debate as we are having here, and debate within The House. There, each rep. ran on some sort of platform prior to their election. They know what their constituents want and don't want, like or don't like, and what votes on the floor will get them more votes next time there is a general election, and which votes will not be good for them next time.

    While I agree that putting up amended bills at the last minute is a lousy way to do business, the Critters do know what they are voting for; and should be held accountable for their votes.

    There is always behind the scenes communications we don't see within the various party and special interest caucuses, and by the time a bill gets to the floor the majority party leadership more or less know if it does or does not have the votes; and the critters more or less know what they are voting for. It works this way regardless of which party has the majority.

    If the final product leaving The House has a public option, it will be only because the critters have voted what they believe their constituents generally wanted and also what they individually believe is best for the country long term.

    I don't fret about a public option. I have been on Medicare now for nearly 2 years during which time I have found out that I have a very serious ailment. Medicare, notwithstanding its low overhead, has paid their claims appropriately; something I could never say when I was covered by The Blues. I really don't know why folks are so scared of a public option, unless they are in the private insurance industry. And even then, just as Medicare leaves room for profitable supplemental policies to be sold, there is no reason such business opportunities wouldn't exist with a public plan.

    As for tort reform, it has been tried here and is generally considered a total failure; it certainly didn't result in price reductions. It just locked people out of an avenue for redressing real harm done to them.
    Last edited by Hopyard; July 5th, 2009 at 08:21 PM.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    There is of course a big difference between public debate as we are having here, and debate within The House. There, each rep. ran on some sort of platform prior to their election. They know what their constituents want and don't want, like or don't like, and what votes on the floor will get them more votes next time there is a general election, and which votes will not be good for them next time.
    This is a mixed bag here.
    While all do know what “their constituents want and don't want, like or don't like”, there are votes (cap and trade in the house) that were bought and paid for with that 300 page add on. Some were allowed to vote no for political cover and other then the leaders, were not allowed to read it first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    While I agree that putting up amened bills at the last minute is a lousy way to do business, the Critters do know what they are voting for; and should be held accountable for their votes.
    Absolutly. If the public can remember that long. Not the fault of the elected though…….

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post

    There is always behind the scenes communications we don't see within the various party and special interest caucuses, and by the time a bill gets to the floor the majority party leadership more or less know if it does or does not have the votes; and the critters more or less know what they are voting for. It works this way regardless of which party has the majority.
    Why? Why does it have to be this way. (I agree that it is.) Is the general public to stupid to understand? And so the back room and the leadership get to stear where the ship is headed?
    This I would guess is the flaw that I have a problem with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I don't fret about a public option.
    I disagree. Your prior statement says otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think the latest polls show that about 75% of the people want something done to change and improve our present "system."
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I really don't know why folks are so scared of a public option, unless they are in the private insurance industry. And even then, just as Medicare leaves room for profitable supplemental policies to be sold, there is no reason such business opportunities wouldn't exist with a public plan.
    I am scared. Of a public option that does not have to compete with the private and will there for kill all private options sooner or later.
    I fear the single payer system that has been tried so many times, so many different ways, in many different places and failed.
    The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
    What is this system going to be based on that has not been tried another place?
    Medicare costs are skyrocketing. To cut costs the “system” is paying caregivers less and less. That will not be an insentive for more caregivers.

    And Medicare does do rationing. How long did you have to wait?
    Too Sick to Work, Too Soon for Medicare: The Human Cost of the Two-Year Medicare Waiting Period for Americans with Disabilities - The Commonwealth Fund
    OneWorld Medicare -- wait times impact your health
    /////
    PDF
    http://www.nationalmssociety.org/gov...d.aspx?id=1029
    “Currently, Medicare forces many individuals, who live with a disability so severe that they cannot work, to wait two years before they can receive any healthcare coverage through Medicare. An estimated 1.5 million Americans living with disabilities—from multiple sclerosis to cancer—are stuck in this waiting period. “
    ///
    Medicare’s own web page.
    Medicare for All: Wait Times
    ////////
    There are only 533000 hits for the phrase “Medicare wait times” on Google
    And you want this for all?
    //////
    Again Medicare’s own site.
    Overview Medicare Enrollment Reports
    http://www.cms.hhs.gov/MedicareEnRpt...ds/HISMI08.pdf
    2008 has 45.3 Million enrolled. That is 45.3 out of the 300 million in the us, and there are already problem with wait times and cost.
    Let me ask, what do you think will happen if this public option takes place?

    edit.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I really don't know why folks are so scared of a public option, unless they are in the private insurance industry.
    I forgot to answer this.
    I am an electronics Engineer and programmer working in embedded hardware and software. I have nothing to do with the insurance industry.
    Doing a search for “tbrenke” or “trbrenke” on google will show this to be true.
    Last edited by tbrenke; July 5th, 2009 at 05:46 PM. Reason: ADDED.
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
    There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.

  5. #19
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I really don't know why folks are so scared of a public option, unless they are in the private insurance industry.
    It is not a matter of being scared, it is that I DON'T WANT TO PAY, NOR SHOULD I BE FORCED TO PAY, FOR YOUR MEDICAL CARE.

  6. #20
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    Liberty. Security. Ben Franklin was no Walter Mitty, that's for sure. He had the sense of things.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  7. #21
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    You are entitled to your viewpoint...however

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    It is not a matter of being scared, it is that I DON'T WANT TO PAY, NOR SHOULD I BE FORCED TO PAY, FOR YOUR MEDICAL CARE.
    You are entitled to that viewpoint, however at this moment in history it appears that your view is not where the majority view is.

    Besides, you are paying for other's health care (one way or the other) with higher insurance costs, tax breaks for hospitals, tax support (often pretty much the whole bill) for your doctors to get educated. We are all paying one way or the other already. It has been estimated that we pay at least 1K per year more for our health insurance to cover ER visits by the uninsured. We pay 20-30 % of our health care dollar in needless administrative costs. Why not try something different as the present stuff ain't exactly working very well.

    As for the claims that it doesn't work in other countries, these are mostly bogus. I know from personal experience or experience of relatives in both Canada and Australia. The French system reportedly has the best outcomes. And I have web friends in the UK who get the care they need as well.

    Your world view of "private enterprise" can solve all problems is as clearly mistaken as the view that government can solve all problems.
    But, there is a difference. You get a tiny voice in a government program and no voice in the private system.

  8. #22
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    You are entitled to that viewpoint, however at this moment in history it appears that your view is not where the majority view is.
    Indeed. The majority of liberals/libertarians are defeating the plurality of conservatives. And the fringe is enabing a [hope and] change that most Americans don't want.

    Besides, you are paying for other's health care (one way or the other) with higher insurance costs,
    I can choose to buy insurance.If the cost is to high I can shop elsewhere.

    tax breaks for hospitals,
    Hospitals (and churches and charities) should not receive tax breaks.

    tax support (often pretty much the whole bill) for your doctors to get educated.
    I am unfamiliar with this tax exempt education that doctors receive. Can you elaborate? I thought they took out loans to pay for their education.

    It has been estimated that we pay at least 1K per year more for our health insurance to cover ER visits by the uninsured.[/QUOTE]

    Those without money should not receive care UNLESS those giving care want to work without compensation. Why should I be forced to pay for some lazy person's medical care? And the fact is that it is not insurance issue, it is a government issue. Just ask all the hospitals that were forced to close in Southern Arizona because the illegal scumbags sneak across the border and expect us to take care of them.

    We pay 20-30 % of our health care dollar in needless administrative costs.
    Which part is needless? Perhaps you should become a consultant and implement a Six Sigma process improvement plan.

    [QUOTE}Why not try something different as the present stuff ain't exactly working very well.[/QUOTE]

    I think it works perfectly well. I buy insurance. I choose my doctor and my treatment and I have the freedom to make my own decisions. Why do you want to take that away? Because a lazy person was unwilling to take personal responsibility for his health care?

    As for the claims that it doesn't work in other countries, these are mostly bogus. I know from personal experience or experience of relatives in both Canada and Australia. The French system reportedly has the best outcomes. And I have web friends in the UK who get the care they need as well.
    As lng as you are t old, or too infirm, or require expensive prescriptions, procedures or even use of medical equipent.

    Are you are of the difference in the number of MRI machines in Canada versus the United States? Do you know why that is?

    Your world view of "private enterprise" can solve all problems is as clearly mistaken as the view that government can solve all problems.
    It doesn't matter wheher it can solve all problems. That is not the goal of private enterprise or government.

    But, there is a difference. You get a tiny voice in a government program and no voice in the private system.
    Completely wrong. I have the loudest voice in the private system. I can choose which service or product I use. If I don't think I am getting good value THEN I CAN START MY OWN BUSINESS.

  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Faith in government is dangerous foolishness. People have been putting their faith in government instead of keeping a very close, very suspicious eye on those with power and it has cost us one liberty after another and trillions of dollars. The attention of the masses are so easily diverted that those we have elected no longer maintain even the pretense of being devoted to the common good.

    Government is a dangerous, aggressive beast on a chain that is just as dangerous to its master as it is to the master's enemies. Faith in government? No thanks.
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  10. #24
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    So, our gov. is working as it was set up to run? Whewre is the term Czar in the Constitution? Who do these Czars report to, who are they accountable to? It is not the people or their Reps. It's one man Obama. Now let me see... no not in my copy, how about yours?

  11. #25
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    Goodness-"czars."

    Quote Originally Posted by SAnta01 View Post
    So, our gov. is working as it was set up to run? Whewre is the term Czar in the Constitution? Who do these Czars report to, who are they accountable to? It is not the people or their Reps. It's one man Obama. Now let me see... no not in my copy, how about yours?
    First off, we have long had a variety of "Czars." These are nothing more than special appointmentees to get a job done. Hence, we have a
    "Drug Czar"--the head of the White House Office of Drug Policy (don't recall the precise title). There has been one in several administrations, certainly including Reagan and both Bushes. Did you remember to criticize them for having "czars?" I'm sure you approve of a "drug czar" to coordinate the anti-drug activities in our nation. No? Be careful how you answer or you might appear to be pro- illegal drugs!

    Second, your assertion about "one man Obama" is ridiculous. He has no such power as we are about to see when partisan obstructionsim and back stabbers in his own party demolish efforts to get coherent legislation for health care reform. If he was "one man Obama" and some sort of Czar, of course such problems wouldn't happnen.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post

    Hospitals (and churches and charities) should not receive tax breaks.
    O.K., a rare point of agreement. But that isn't the way things are.

    I am unfamiliar with this tax exempt education that doctors receive.
    I said nothing about such a thing. I was talking about the tax support for the medical schools and health science centers which make it possible for folks to go to publicly funded medical schools, often at little or not tuition expense.

    I'm in the process of trying to get an FOI request answered on what it costs our state to educate each medical student. I think the figure is something like 2 million to 3 million each over 4 years. For that, I think they owe us taxpayer more reasonably priced services.

    Just for quick grins, the A&M U. Health Science Center has a unified budget of 84 million per their website; and collects about 4 million in tuition fees. We taxpayers should expect something for our 80 million dollars per year besides rip-off bills.

    (For any docs here who went to a private medical school, I've no quarrel. Different educational costs, less taxpayer involvement.)

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
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    Oh I see it.. and it makes me sick
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