One of the few voices of reason...

One of the few voices of reason...

This is a discussion on One of the few voices of reason... within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Fears of Interstate Handgun Laws Soon Forgotten? - FOXNews.com Fears of Interstate Handgun Laws Soon Forgotten? Just like the original ruckus over passing concealed handgun ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    One of the few voices of reason...

    Fears of Interstate Handgun Laws Soon Forgotten? - FOXNews.com

    Fears of Interstate Handgun Laws Soon Forgotten?

    Just like the original ruckus over passing concealed handgun laws, the fears about allowing people to travel with guns will soon be forgotten.

    Wednesday morning the US Senate voted on whether to allow concealed handgun permit holders to carry handguns across state lines. The legislation sponsored by Senator John Thune (R, SD) would only allow reciprocity in permitting, as anybody would still be required to obey the laws of the states that they travel in. This is the same way driver's licenses work.

    Yet, gun control advocates are predicting the worst. Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D, NJ) warns it is an "attempt by the gun lobby to put its radical agenda ahead of safety and security in our communities." Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D, NY) calls it a "harmful measure" that will put the public at risk. Senator Chuck Schumer (D, NY) says: "It could reverse the dramatic success we've had in reducing crime in most all parts of America."

    The claims echo those made when concealed-handgun laws were originally passed, when gun control advocates warned that permit holders would lose their tempers and there would be blood in the streets.

    Obviously that never happened. We now have extensive experience with concealed-handgun permit holders. In 2007, about 5 million Americans were permitted to carry concealed handguns across 48 states that let citizens carry. 39 of these states have relatively liberal right-to-carry laws that let people get permits once they pass a criminal background check, pay a fee, and in many states receive training

    Take Florida, for example. Between Oct. 1, 1987, and March 31, 2009, Florida issued permits to 1,480,704 people, many of whom renewed their permits multiple times. Only 166 had their permits revoked for a firearms-related violation - about 0.01 percent.

    Similarly in Texas, in 2006, there were 258,162 active permit holders. Out of these, one hundred forty were convicted of either a misdemeanor or a felony, a rate of .05 percent. That is about one-seventh the conviction rate in the general adult population, and the convictions among permit holders tend to be for much less serious offenses. The most frequent type of revocation, with 33 cases, involved carrying a weapon without their license with them.

    The same pattern occurs in state after state. Permit holders lose their permits at hundredths or thousands of one percent for any type of gun related violations, and even then they are usually for relatively trivial offenses.

    Gun control groups such as the Violence Policy Center and the Brady Campaign have put out reports this week that attempt to show how dangerous permit holders are. But they make several serious mistakes: they usually include arrests and not convictions and they make mistakes on whether the people have concealed handgun permits. Even in the few cases where they correctly identify problems, they never discuss the rate that permit holders violate the law.

    If a permit holder fires a gun defensively and kills or wounds an attacker, even if the shooting was completely justified, they will almost always be arrested. A police officer who arrives on the scene simply can't be sure what happened until an investigation is completed. But these justified shootings are exactly why concealed handgun permits are allowed and including them as a cost of concealed handgun laws has the entire process backwards.

    Even though the adoption of right-to-carry laws was highly controversial in some states, the laws were so successful that no state has ever rescinded one. Indeed, no state has even held a legislative hearing to consider rescinding concealed-carry.

    Everyone wants to keep guns away from criminals. The problem is that law-abiding citizens are the ones most likely to obey the gun control laws, leaving them disarmed and vulnerable and making it easier for criminals to commit crime.

    Police are extremely important in deterring crime - according to my research, the most important factor. But the police also understand that they almost always arrive after the crime has been committed.

    There is a lot of refereed academic research on the impact that right-to-carry laws across the country have crime rates. While a large majority of the refereed studies by economists and criminologists find that crime rate fall after these laws are adopted and some claim to find no effect, no such studies find a bad effect on crime rates, suicides or accidental deaths.

    The legislation before the senate doesn't really break new ground. Most states already recognize permits from other states: 34 states recognize Missouri's permits, 33 for Utah, 32 for Florida, 31 Texas, 26 Ohio, and 24 Pennsylvania. And there is no evidence that these reciprocity agreements have caused any problems.

    Here is a prediction. Just like the original ruckus over passing concealed handgun laws, the fears about allowing people to travel with guns will soon be forgotten.

    John Lott is the author of More Guns, Less Crime. John Lott's past pieces for Fox News can be found here and here.
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  2. #2
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    Agreed, I read this yesterday after the vote went down.

  3. #3
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    Pretty clear and simple information...why do so many politicians have trouble understanding the concept of RKBA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Pretty clear and simple information...why do so many politicians have trouble understanding the concept of RKBA?
    It isn't that they don't understand it, so much as they are afraid of it. How would they run this country if more and more started taking responsibility for themselves? Just think it starts with taking responsibilty for your own safety, then you start taking responsibility for your own education, then your own finances, and then....... you get the picture. Now with all of this going on the People start to take a long look at what is going on in their state legislatures and in Washington. This really scares a certain segment of "professional politians".
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    RKBA aside, how can anyone possibly ignore the fact that upstanding citizens are NOT the threat? Criminals already sidestep the laws, and they'll continue to carry weapons irrespective of what some political hack in the capitol says. The ONLY real impact of these citizen-disarmament laws is to restrict the supposedly-heinous behavior of upstanding people. Which means, such disarmament laws have zero impact on crime. Zero, other than to disarm victims ahead of it striking, which is about as bad an unintended consequence as can be designed into a law.

    The p.hacks are afraid of that. Afraid of upstanding citizens being able to defend themselves against crime, anytime, anywhere. It's preposterous, absolutely.
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    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    I wonder how many of those in congress who are against the reciprocity have concealed weapon permits or have body guards who carry a weapon? I believe that Chuckie Cheese Schumer is a license holder. And I can't think of anyone who I would fear more making a stupid blunder than Chuckie.
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

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    Has anyone thought that it might not be about the 2nd Amendment as much as it's about the 10th? Talk to your governor to get your AG working on the states that don't allow you to carry and stop making this a Federal issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Pretty clear and simple information...why do so many politicians have trouble understanding the concept of RKBA?
    Trying to explain the obvious to the oblivious.
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    Member Array Faitmaker's Avatar
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    It's this kind of BS that I don't want the Feds touching my state laws. They will threaten, lie, steal, and/or cheat to get what they want. It's this extortion that I have previously talked about. Once you go down a road, you may not be able to get back to the intersection.
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  10. #10
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    Some Politicians don't understand the right to bear arms because for the most part they are a bunch of pansys. I know some, and most of them couldn't win a fight against an angry piss-ant or rip their way out of a wet paper sack if one was placed over their head. Some of them are remarkably simple minded people to be apparently successful and some of them don't have the emotional stability of a 6 year old.

    Having has some rather interesting conversations with some about various issues,I continue to be amazed at the often small worlds that they choose to dwell in. The more I deal with them, the less use I actually have for them. I know a few that are good men, but they are overwhelmed by the sheeple in office, they tell me its like swimming upstream constantly, eventually you'll just wear yourself out.

    We have certainly seen that on some issues here in Arkansas. No different than the national scene, we have many socialists in office that are all about gimme gimme gimme.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    You know, NY can talk all it wants to about how non-state permit holders who carry within NY will create unrest and disaster all they want. However, what NY is really saying (and doing) is that they do not trust out-of-state gun carrying citizens and thereby are banning them from freely traveling in NY. It is an act of protectionism by excluding out of state permit holders from legally carrying their firearms within NY.

    As such, it is illegal and unconstitutional.

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    As such, it is illegal and unconstitutional.
    Its New York.
    It's only illegal and uconstitutional if you have enough money to hire a lawyer to prove otherswise. Until then, it's just standard operating procedure.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  13. #13
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Some Politicians don't understand the right to bear arms because for the most part they are a bunch of pansys. I know some, and most of them couldn't win a fight against an angry piss-ant or rip their way out of a wet paper sack if one was placed over their head. Some of them are remarkably simple minded people to be apparently successful and some of them don't have the emotional stability of a 6 year old.

    Having has some rather interesting conversations with some about various issues,I continue to be amazed at the often small worlds that they choose to dwell in. The more I deal with them, the less use I actually have for them. I know a few that are good men, but they are overwhelmed by the sheeple in office, they tell me its like swimming upstream constantly, eventually you'll just wear yourself out.

    We have certainly seen that on some issues here in Arkansas. No different than the national scene, we have many socialists in office that are all about gimme gimme gimme.
    Give it a two 'thumbs up' on this reply. So true...and the same way I see it.

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array tiwee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Some Politicians don't understand the right to bear arms because for the most part they are a bunch of pansys. I know some, and most of them couldn't win a fight against an angry piss-ant or rip their way out of a wet paper sack if one was placed over their head. Some of them are remarkably simple minded people to be apparently successful and some of them don't have the emotional stability of a 6 year old.

    Having has some rather interesting conversations with some about various issues,I continue to be amazed at the often small worlds that they choose to dwell in. The more I deal with them, the less use I actually have for them. I know a few that are good men, but they are overwhelmed by the sheeple in office, they tell me its like swimming upstream constantly, eventually you'll just wear yourself out.

    We have certainly seen that on some issues here in Arkansas. No different than the national scene, we have many socialists in office that are all about gimme gimme gimme.
    This is so true at the federal level. It astonishes me the poor quality of people we have in the senate and house in DC. At the state level, I am not personally acquainted with very many. Those I do know are stand up type of people.

  15. #15
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    The problem is that the "stand up people" are overwhelmed and overshadowed by the "sit down people", which are sitting in the chairs of socialism, which for some reason unknown to me seems to be the popular thing today.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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