Rights VS Privilege? What Are Your Thoughts? - Page 5

Rights VS Privilege? What Are Your Thoughts?

This is a discussion on Rights VS Privilege? What Are Your Thoughts? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Had a former LEO as a boss who said the same sort of "privilege" crap to me constantly. I'm sorry, but I don't think the ...

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Thread: Rights VS Privilege? What Are Your Thoughts?

  1. #61
    Member Array Czampion's Avatar
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    Had a former LEO as a boss who said the same sort of "privilege" crap to me constantly. I'm sorry, but I don't think the "privileged" should be the only ones armed in society. And who are our governors to think they excercise such authority over our spending habits, life choices and safety? Public office is a privilege; bearing arms is a right.


  2. #62
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faitmaker View Post
    How is that anarchism which seeks to remove government from the equation entirely?

    I can hold with that statement. I do not think it means to dismantle the government but to hold them accountable to the people. If we did so, we would see far less problems.
    I am not going to discuss my issues with the concept of libertarianism. I'll discuss it at conservativestroghold.com, Bumper's other forum.

    SD - Can you please explain what you mean by "society.. determines who has the privilege of exercising those rights.
    Society would be the People of the We the People described in the Preamble. We formed a government to protect our rights and we determine who has the power to exercise those rights. Quite rightly, felons cannot keep and bear arms and their Liberty is withdrawn. We do not extend them the privilege of exercising those particular right. For heinous crimes we do not let them exercise the very basic right of Life.

    I would appreciate it if you do not reply with hostility.
    Hostility to people? I enjoy the exchange of ideas and I loathe personal attacks. I will argue vehemently against ideas. And that gets some people very upset as they are sometimes emotionally attached to their ideas.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    If someone did the time, they should have all rights restored after.

    As it is, we have the beginnings of a class or caste bound society.

    Have you noticed the people who do the most to keep the legal system from being effective in dealing with crime are also the ones who most ardently support gun control?

  4. #64
    Member Array Wolf357's Avatar
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    The 2nd Amendment is clearly a right that is being treated as if it were a privilege by those who preach tolerance but commonly practice intolerance. And, sadly, too many of these hypocrites are law makers.

    Just exactly what is it about "shall not be infringed" don't these anti-gun members of the power elite understand?
    And Jesus said, "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." (Luke 22:36)

    I am a peaceful man. But I am not a pacifist.

  5. #65
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faitmaker View Post
    SD - Can you please explain what you mean by "society.. determines who has the privilege of exercising those rights. That is why libertarians are anarchists. They do not respect society."? I don't believe I follow. I consider myself a Libertarian but do not believe I don't respect society. And for the record, I am asking an innocent question to understand your point better. I would appreciate it if you do not reply with hostility. Maybe it's the fact that we are conversing over text but I always get this real hostile vibe from you and I'm trying to be open-minded.
    He, like many, conflates the concepts of objectivism and anarcho-capitalism. One espouses minimal government, a "night watchman" state that exists merely to protect against attacks on persons or property, while the other espouses no government and a system of private justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillep Harding View Post
    As it is, we have the beginnings of a class or caste bound society.
    That's certainly true, just look at the 'anti' states...people in the 'power' caste are allowed weapons while others are not.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
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  6. #66
    Member Array CenCal's Avatar
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    It is my Right to Keep and Bear Arms, However, I feel Privileged to have that right because of the others who went before me to fight, defend, and secure my rights.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    What right is being whittled away? In my state, my rights have been expanded! We not only have concealed carry laws and 'Castle Doctrine' protection but rexently we passed resaurant carry.

    The rhetoric of our rights being taken away grows tiresome.
    For you to claim on one hand that our rights have not been whittled away and on the other hand offer as proof that "we recently passed restaurant carry" is absurd. "Well, let freedom ring! We now have permission to carry a gun in the vicinity of food! Thank God almighty..."

    How can a right be 'expanded' unless it is first whittled away?

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    So, it is your opinion that under certain circumstances society has the right to remove or restrict these so called unalienable rights. How is that different than society allowing you the privilege of exercising your rights?
    There is a difference. Our society was created to secure our rights and should, for that purpose, only suspend a right when it becomes necessary. This is different than surrendering all of your rights at birth and having to beg for a privilege before you can legally do what you wish. A permit to carry is a great example.

    When society unnecessarily infringes on our rights, then we are failing to keep them secure. When we fail, we can either fix things or bury our head in the sand and say "All is well!"

    Re-instating a man's rights after he serves his sentence is an important step in fixing our country. It will put the fact that we don't properly punish criminals right in our faces. We need to be uncomfortable with our neighbor doing murder and getting out in 10 years. It's not as easy to stomach when he has all the same rights as everyone else. Only then we will we see to it that criminals receive proper sentence including 'life without parole' and execution.

    When all free men have the same right to keep and bear arms, background checks become useless. Permits become useless. 'Restaurant carry' becomes a matter for you and the owner to work out. All of the ridiculous ways that felons are used as leverage in the conversion of a right to a privilege immediately begin to fall apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense
    Why? There is neither a duty nor responsibility to protect a criminal.
    Hmm... it sounds like you don't care what happens inside prison walls, but I think everyone might agree that crimes do not cease to be crimes when they take place behind prison walls. What kind of moral society would prevent you from defending yourself and not take any measures to protect you? Not a society that I am satisfied with.

  8. #68
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    SelfDefense,

    If you think that there is no responsibility to protect convicts in prison from rape, assault, and murder, I'm sure I can't change your mind. But that does lead me to question your moral character. It is similar to a child who catches field mice, and starves them in a box until they cannibalize each other.

    Yeah, they are JUST mice, and they have no RIGHT to protection.

    To fail to protect one convict from another is to facilitate a violent crime. That is simply wrong.

    Plenty of keyboard commandos just love to swing it around to show how TOUGH TOUGH TOUGH they are on criminals. The fact is the overwhelmong majority of convicts come BACK, maybe in 3 years, maybe in 20, and the more they are insulted, and given disincentive to walk the straight and narrow, the more likely that one of US will ultimately have to deal with them permanently.

  9. #69
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    For you to claim on one hand that our rights have not been whittled away and on the other hand offer as proof that "we recently passed restaurant carry" is absurd. "Well, let freedom ring! We now have permission to carry a gun in the vicinity of food! Thank God almighty..."
    You seem to forget that there is no right to carrying a concealed weapon. You cannot make up rights just because you think they are rights.

    How can a right be 'expanded' unless it is first whittled away?
    If it did not exist before.

    There is a difference. Our society was created to secure our rights and should, for that purpose, only suspend a right when it becomes necessary.
    So, it is you opinion that society can determine when suspending a right is necessary. Good. We are getting somewhere.

    This is different than surrendering all of your rights at birth and having to beg for a privilege before you can legally do what you wish. A permit to carry is a great example.
    Yes, it is. There is no right to permit. And unless your state government extends the privilege, you have no right to keep and bear arms, either.

    The Founders were very clear. All en are created equal and we have unalienable rights and among them are, Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Government is formed to protect those rights. And We the People determine which rights we protect and who has the privilege of exercising them.

    You can;t personally make up your own set of rights because of your preconceived notion. That is why the libertarian philosphy was defeated at the outset.

    When society unnecessarily infringes on our rights, then we are failing to keep them secure. When we fail, we can either fix things or bury our head in the sand and say "All is well!"
    Or perhaps only you think our rights are unneccessarily infringed.

    Re-instating a man's rights after he serves his sentence is an important step in fixing our country.
    Our country is not broken. We have the best society, the best government in all history. We have determined that part of the penalty for felons is to disallow them certain rights. You don;t like it? Lobby your legislators for hange. Most of us do not want felons to carry guns, vote or whatever penalties you think are an infringement.

    It will put the fact that we don't properly punish criminals right in our faces.
    You are right. We should put drug abusers in jail for a long time. Often they get a slap on the wrist. Surely you agree?

    When all free men have the same right to keep and bear arms, background checks become useless. Permits become useless. 'Restaurant carry' becomes a matter for you and the owner to work out. All of the ridiculous ways that felons are used as leverage in the conversion of a right to a privilege immediately begin to fall apart.
    There is no conversion from a right to a privilege. The People decide who has the privilege of exercising the rights that the People determine what those rights are.

    Background checks useless? Background checks should be thorough, extensive and quick. We do not want guns in the hands of the wrong people. And yes, We the People decide who the wrong people are.

    Hmm... it sounds like you don't care what happens inside prison walls, but I think everyone might agree that crimes do not cease to be crimes when they take place behind prison walls.
    Not too much, It is very, very easy to stay out of prison. Virtually every, law abiding citizen has ever seenthe inside of a police station no less a prison. (I once visited Alcatraz)

    What kind of moral society would prevent you from defending yourself and not take any measures to protect you? Not a society that I am satisfied with.
    Some people are never satisfied no matter how good things are.

  10. #70
    Member Array Faitmaker's Avatar
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    SD - I'm starting to believe that you only post to hear yourself. Please answer my two questions.

    How is Libertarianism equivalent to Anarchy and how is a right unalienable also able to be taken away?

    The very definition of unalienable means not able to be transferred, sold or surrendered.

    You wouldn't let anyone else post ambigious comments without backing up their statements. Please back up yours.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand

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  11. #71
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faitmaker View Post
    SD - I'm starting to believe that you only post to hear yourself. Please answer my two questions.
    No, I post and read to share ideas. I would be happy to answer your questions.

    How is Libertarianism equivalent to Anarchy and how is a right unalienable also able to be taken away?
    I will not address the first beause it is inappropriate for the forum. I will answer it an Bumper's other forum, conservativestronghold.com

    An unalienable right can be taken away or restricted at the pleasure of society. That is why our government was formed, to protect those rights. However, it is also in our purview to remove or restrict those rights if circumstances warrant that action. And those circumstances are determined by the People. Otherwise, incarcerated prisoners would have guns. Second Amendment and all...

    The very definition of unalienable means not able to be transferred, sold or surrendered.
    That is correct. Those rights exist irrespective of government interference. However, it is the duty of government to restrict the privilege of exercising those rights when necessary. That has been my point all along.

    You wouldn't let anyone else post ambigious comments without backing up their statements. Please back up yours.
    I hope I have clarified my opinion.

  12. #72
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    You seem to forget that there is no right to carrying a concealed weapon. You cannot make up rights just because you think they are rights.
    Are you saying "rights do not exist unless they are specifically created by a society"? Do you have a right to leave your lair? Or must society giiiiive you the privilege? My view is that we have a right to do anything, except for what society has made criminal. We classify certain things as crimes in order to establish that we have no right to do them, not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    So, it is you opinion that society can determine when suspending a right is necessary. Good. We are getting somewhere.
    We've been there for quite some time. I'll say again: Why is it necessary to abrogate the rights of felons after they have been released? You say it is, but still have no explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Yes, it is. There is no right to permit. And unless your state government extends the privilege, you have no right to keep and bear arms, either.
    Once again, with the whole "no rights exist unless they are enumerated." I say we have the right to do something unless and until it is made criminal. Otherwise we would have a pretty short list of rights. Would it not be easier for society to list things that we cannot do?

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    The Founders were very clear. All en are created equal and we have unalienable rights and among them are, Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Government is formed to protect those rights. And We the People determine which rights we protect and who has the privilege of exercising them.
    And when we have made poor decisions and failed to protect our rights to the fullest, we should fix the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Or perhaps only you think our rights are unneccessarily infringed.
    Perhaps it is me who is alone on an island. Perhaps...

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Our country is not broken. We have the best society, the best government in all history. We have determined that part of the penalty for felons is to disallow them certain rights. You don;t like it? Lobby your legislators for hange. Most of us do not want felons to carry guns, vote or whatever penalties you think are an infringement.
    And why do we not want felons to carry guns? Because we know in our hearts that they are still dangerous and belong either in prison or six feet under. This is an example of how our country is in fact broken. So I will say that we had the best government and society in all history.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    You are right. We should put drug abusers in jail for a long time. Often they get a slap on the wrist. Surely you agree?
    Since it is a crime to abuse certain substances, we should design a sentence that is long enough to deter the crime. If people get out and go right back to their crime, obviously the sentence did not accomplish anything. Often, druggies get what is comparable to a speeding ticket.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    There is no conversion from a right to a privilege. The People decide who has the privilege of exercising the rights that the People determine what those rights are.
    Would it be possible for you to type up a list of your rights here? I'd like to see them. Please don't say "Free health care."

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Background checks useless? Background checks should be thorough, extensive and quick. We do not want guns in the hands of the wrong people. And yes, We the People decide who the wrong people are.
    What use would a background check be if everyone passed? You didn't take time to understand what I wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Not too much, It is very, very easy to stay out of prison. Virtually every, law abiding citizen has ever seenthe inside of a police station no less a prison. (I once visited Alcatraz)
    That is no reason to be careless in the design of a very important part of our society (justice system).

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Some people are never satisfied no matter how good things are.
    You don't get to be the best by being easily satisfied. That is the path to long term mediocrity.

  13. #73
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    Rights VS Privilege? What Are Your Thoughts?

    Is that document called The Bill Of Rights or the bill of privileges?? There is your answer!
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  14. #74
    Member Array Faitmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I will not address the first beause it is inappropriate for the forum. I will answer it an Bumper's other forum, conservativestronghold.com

    I hope I have clarified my opinion.
    I'm thinking that if your answer is inappropriate to the forum than maybe, just maybe the offhand comment you made in regards to it might be as well.

    You have clarified your opinion but really haven't answered how an non-surrenderable right can be surrendered. In another post, you beat to death that states cannot make compacts without Congressional approval. I don't understand how you can feel that absolute about something like that and be so giving with something as absolute as non-surrenderable. You should be beating your chest about the illegality of removing any citizens rights. I really just don't get you.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand

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  15. #75
    VIP Member Array shooterX's Avatar
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    I think it's pretty clear tha it is a right not a privilege.

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