The Time to Mobilize is NOW!

This is a discussion on The Time to Mobilize is NOW! within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Look out, kids...here it comes! I could see it happening, though I think it is a LONG way down the road. Vote next November too!!!...

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Thread: The Time to Mobilize is NOW!

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Look out, kids...here it comes! I could see it happening, though I think it is a LONG way down the road. Vote next November too!!!
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array 2ndsupporter's Avatar
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    Bark'n, that was beautifully put. You nailed right on the head.

    Stop and look back since January, it's amazing as to what has taken place. Quadrupling the debt in just months?

    I think there is no end to what this lunitic can do in just 1 years much less 4 years!!
    [One Nation Under God]

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    AMEN, BARK'N......

    And even though Rep. Wilson will get excoriated for telling the truth, perhaps that is exactly what we need right now - the truth.....
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Bark'n,

    As usual, you have a grasp of the situation that is hard to top.



    Biker
    +1 Agreed. well stated and thought provoking. I am not opposed to reforming our health care system, however, I completely disagree with the course the current efforts are taking. I think we make tort reform, openning up the state borders to allow us to buy insurance from anywhere we wish, and have a national discussion of a co-op system similar to that used in Washington State as a means to reducing costs and possibly insuring those who have trouble affording it.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    Bark'n, you get my vote. Very succinct and accurate, oh and scary too.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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  7. #21
    Member Array OhioPx4Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    When/if we get a Gov. run health program, and it starts banning things that are responsible for causing injuries or deaths in far far greater numbers then firearms do . Then, I'll jump on the guns and health care band wagon.
    If you wait till they start banning things, it will be too late. The time to act is before the gun grabbers use any excuse they can to take our guns and deny us our 2nd Amendment rights!

    I can see a scenario where they tax guns and ammo because of the cost to health care just like they have done to cigarettes with the "sin taxes". Obama and the democrats will use any excuse they can to get additional gun control laws on the books.

    I agree with the OP that the time to act is now!
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  8. #22
    Member Array cz2075bd's Avatar
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    Bark'n 2012! :)

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Bark'n, hate to do this but your post has some information in it that is just dead wrong. TARP was started and funded under Bush's administration. The automotive industry loans were started and engineered by the Bush administration. You are correct that the Obama adminsitration asked Wagner to step down, and he did. Would it be better that the person at the helm while GM crashed stayed on and was allowed to keep running the company. Talk about rewarding bad behavior.

    One thing that folks seem to overlook is that in these bailouts, there were virtually no restrictions on how the companies could use the money. Anyone remember the outrage over the big bonuses of AIG? For those with short memories that was even before the election last year. So how can one make the clain that we are turning into a fascist country when the feds simply handed over hundreds of billions of dollars without any control over it. A far cry from fascism by any reasonable definition.

    Do I like it, no, but it is stupidity not fascism.

    So far, it doesn't look like we will have complete nationalized health care, and the idea that through healthcare reform we will somehow loose our gun rights is a bit over the top as well. So far we have medicare, and medicaid, and the VA system that are national healthcare systems. If you know anyone who is currently using any of those systems, please confront them and tell them how they are dragging this country into a fascist state. Is there anything in those plans that say participants can't own guns or use them, simple answer is, no.

    There is one great obstacle that everyone seems to forget about, it is the 2A. I am waiting to hear a good explanation of how any healthcare reform is going to hold up to a 2A challenge of the Constitution.

    Now where is that tinfoil hat thingy.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Nice try, to slip in right-wing diatribe and disinformation on health care reform by mentioning gun rights.

    Why not take the health care debate over to a political forum, and leave this one to real 2nd Amendment issues, as Bumper and the moderators have repeatedly asked?
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    Tangoseal and others - I'm not in favor of nationalized health care, and that's not what the proposals are about.

    The fundamental reason why free markets generally lead to positive outcomes is that they are competitive, and people have free access to information. For example we're all well informed about the quality and prices of various guns, so pricing tends to reflect quality.

    When there's a serious power disparity between buyers and sellers of products, this breaks down. That's why services like water, policing, and roads are generally public or very heavily regulated. The economics of public utilities tend to lead to monopolies, because of how much more efficient it is to have one company run the whole thing. In fully free competition, you would then not have any say in the pricing of water.

    The health insurance market isn't quite that extreme, but it's a similar situation. It's nearly impossible for an individual consumer to understand one health plan, much less do serious comparison shopping. Since it's generally employer-provided, you generally don't have much choice anyway. The market only provides what people want when that's the most profitable option. It's only the most profitable option when people are well informed of their options, and when they're fully able to select from a wide range of competitors who offer a wide range of options. In the case of health insurance, that's just not the case. Many things are offered, but the average person cannot understand what they really are, and can really only accept or decline the one or two options that his employer offers. Without that competitive pressure, markets do not work in the favor of consumers.

    I believe that people are less free when subject to monopolistic market forces, which is why I support some degree of government intervention. The President just spoke against single payer (nationalization) -- he made an explicit argument for simply intervening in the current market. Since the power disparity between consumers and insurance companies is huge, I believe that this is an appropriate use of government power.

    Consider that the most successful markets are heavily regulated by government. For example, the stock and commodity markets are widely considered to be the most efficient markets. Those are under constant, heavy scrutiny by the SEC -- much beyond the scope of any surveillance that we would accept in private life. Because the SEC keeps traders honest and forces critical information to become freely available, traders trust the market, and it can provide efficient outcomes.

    I know I'm not likely to make many converts here, but I hope you'll consider it.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodc13 View Post
    Nice try, to slip in right-wing diatribe and disinformation on health care reform by mentioning gun rights.

    Why not take the health care debate over to a political forum, and leave this one to real 2nd Amendment issues, as Bumper and the moderators have repeatedly asked?
    rodc,

    I understand your skepticism. But, is it that long a shot to suspect that those who oppose guns would not/could not use this as an opportunity to take it out on those who own guns?

    Some pediatricians already ask about guns in the house. Think Sixto's post about his son announcing he had a new rifle, and the comment from office staff about scheduling a home visit.

    Why is this an impossibility for a government that has already shown it is ready and willing to intrude into every aspect of our lives?

    I don't know the answer to my questions. I am sure that some of you who know much more than I do about these topics have all the answers ( ). But, I am suspicious of my government doing what they think is right because they also tend to think I am not smart enough to run my own life without their help.
    Last edited by miklcolt45; September 10th, 2009 at 12:04 PM. Reason: clear up grammar
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  13. #27
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    Bark'n:

    The banks and auto industry were bailed out starting under President Bush. The loans extended were voluntary, and had explicit strings attached.

    When a bank lends money to a small business, it's common that they'll want a seat on the board. This is to protect their lent money. When the American government extended loans to failing banks and GM, they required similar controls.

    The companies had every ability to turn these loans down, or to look for loans in the private sector. Their shareholders, as represented by their boards, decided that accepting these conditions was a better deal.

    That's not a government takeover in any way. They were trying to keep central parts of our economy from imploding, and it seems to have worked. GM and the banks had a clear history of making bad decisions, so it would be dumb to lend money without attaching strings to it.

    It's like offering to help a drug addict but only if he spends the money on your terms. You know he'll buy dope unsupervised, so you attach strings to the offer. If he doesn't like it, he can get help elsewhere.

  14. #28
    Member Array funwitHK's Avatar
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    we can always make comparisons to history and twist things so they slant our way. obviously, this debate can go on for days, and every little word the president says, fault can be found in it if one looks hard enough. Here's my 2 cents. We can argue about what's right, who does and doesn't want to be a nazi- nation....blah, blah, blah. But the president has to do SOMETHING that everyone can maybe not agree on, but can live with. Key phrase here is LIVE WITH. It's impossible to get a 100 % concensus on anything in this country because of our culture/rights to say and do what ever we want. I certainly don't agree with the president's position on gun control, and I have a lot of reservations about the health care reform plan he is proposing. But if I stand back, look at the big picture and not just think about myself but look at the country as a whole, we have to do something! Can I live with what he is proposing? my answer is YES. Do I really, really like this whole health care reform? NO. Although many americans hear the words everyday that our health care system is getting out of hand, and many of us have experienced trials, and hardships related to health care, seriously think about this, what are we supposed to do for those who are in a worse position than the majority? Let them die? That would be so un-American. Something has to be done, and unless you (as a person) can be in a position to fix the problem, the government has to step in at some point or WE WILL SEE A REAL TRAJEDY unfold in our nation. So my response to all the critics of the President is: at least he is doing something to at least try. Doing nothing at all would be worse.
    We have to find and all agree to sacrifice some, in order to this from going out of control to the point where everyone loses.
    funwitHK
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  15. #29
    Member Array carry ok's Avatar
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    McPatrickClan and Bark'N

    +1 here. Another thing common in Germany during the acquisition of, and consolidation of power by Herr Hitler, was the firm belief by most Germans that the warnings of Hitler's real intententions were preposturous. Never mind his writings and speeches clearly outlining his beliefs and intentions. That seems to be quite a parallel to events in our Nation today, in my observations. This most succinctly bears out the adage 'there are none so blind...........'
    Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is No Vice--Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice is No Virtue. - Senator Barry Goldwater

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    rodc, . . . I understand your skepticism. But, is it that long a shot to suspect that those who oppose guns would not/could not use this as an opportunity to take it out on those who own guns?
    Yes, it absolutely is that long a shot.

    This is just a convoluted shaggy dog story, on the same level as "death panels". If you want to oppose health care reform, knock yourself out on some political forum, but why not debate it on the real issues instead of concocting a 2A scare tactic scam?

    There are lots of ways that anti-gunners try to limit gun rights. Health care reform is not one of those.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

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