ObamaCare Could be Used to Ban Guns in Home Self-Defense - Vote - Page 3

ObamaCare Could be Used to Ban Guns in Home Self-Defense - Vote

This is a discussion on ObamaCare Could be Used to Ban Guns in Home Self-Defense - Vote within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff You completely missed my point. Although I wasn't very clear and just hung that statement out in thin air. I was ...

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Thread: ObamaCare Could be Used to Ban Guns in Home Self-Defense - Vote

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array 12Rounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    You completely missed my point. Although I wasn't very clear and just hung that statement out in thin air. I was taking a stab at the statement near the beginning of the OP that said:



    So my statement was wondering why it's different that purchasers of auto insurance pay more with a record of accidents and speeding tickets? It's generally accepted that you pay for the consiquences of your life choices - but not when it comes to health care?

    I find it interesting that the "gun crowd" who, when asked "why do you need a gun?" will usually respond with "take responsibility for your own safety." Is paying more for lifestyle choices (which have proven to cost the system more money) really "shenanigans" to "control" behavior? If people make lifestyle choices to end up in a high risk catagory then they likewise "choose" to pay more. That's how the free market works. When everyone else subsidises the choices of others then you have a version of a socialistic system.

    Remember, we are talking about choices, not people being dealt a bad hand....

    Excellent post.


    Rod,
    That was funny.
    If the truth hurts......


  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12Rounds View Post
    Excellent post.
    Thanks.

    Now conversly, I have a friend who was bitten by a rattlesnake at the age of 5 yrs old and lost her leg. Now in her 40's, she is always worried about loosing employer based health care because her pre existing condition would make health care prohibitive and the cost of replacement prosthetics every couple years out of reach.

    Reforms need to happen - but the type of fear mongering by the agency that put out this email are what prevents constructive debate. Unfortunately, it looks to me like the reforms proposed will only continue to ruin the system in the long run and further bankrupt the country.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  3. #33
    Ex Member Array BuckeyeEric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    Thanks.

    Now conversly, I have a friend who was bitten by a rattlesnake at the age of 5 yrs old and lost her leg. Now in her 40's, she is always worried about loosing employer based health care because her pre existing condition would make health care prohibitive and the cost of replacement prosthetics every couple years out of reach.

    Reforms need to happen - but the type of fear mongering by the agency that put out this email are what prevents constructive debate. Unfortunately, it looks to me like the reforms proposed will only continue to ruin the system in the long run and further bankrupt the country.
    Change has to happen. My father in law is a amputee as well. Thank goodness for Medicaid!

    Health insurance is out of reach right now for allot of American's. The services continue to dwindle, as the price goes up. Employers are having a hard time affording it to their employee's. My wife works for a law firm. She gets paid very well but her employer just cant afford that benefit. Even with our total household income, we cant afford to buy it independently. My two sons are on Medicare and my wife and I are just rolling the dice right now. We both have pre-existing conditions.

    I look at it this way: You may say its a piece of **** legislation, but at the very least it is a start. Allot like CCW in 2003 here in Ohio. But it is something that can be built on and improved over time.

    Just keep in mind that the insurance lobby is almost full steam on their scare tactic right now, and it will only get worse. Also keep in mind that O'care (as allot of ppl like to call it) is threating a LARGE portion of the private insurance company's market share. Of course they are gonna be upset. They prefer things the way they are.

    This is totally a game of "Big Money" and unfortunately, us American's are held in the balance.

  4. #34
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    eventually this thread had to deviate from the 2A connections and I think this may be the start.

    I look at it this way: You may say its a piece of **** legislation, but at the very least it is a start. Allot like CCW in 2003 here in Ohio. But it is something that can be built on and improved over time.
    Something to build on is when you start small, see how it affects things, and then make changes. Not taking a huge swing at massive changes and try to scale back later.

    When you are fixing a broken machine, you start with one change at a time so you can see how your efforts affect the rest of the machines operation. When you make too many changes at once and get an undesirable result, you have no way of pinpointing which change was the culprit.

    Just keep in mind that the insurance lobby is almost full steam on their scare tactic right now, and it will only get worse. Also keep in mind that O'care (as allot of ppl like to call it) is threating a LARGE portion of the private insurance company's market share. Of course they are gonna be upset. They prefer things the way they are.
    speculation and more scare tactic on your part. Of course insurance companies don't want to be put out of business and that's exactly what a government option or government sponsored coop would do - eventually.

    Ask yourself this - proponents of certain reforms who villify(sp?) the insurance companies speak of what a profitable business it is and how they have us all over a barrel. Well in a free market society, it would make sense that smart executives would leave companies to form their own insurance companies and try to rake in a piece of the pie. So why is it that there isn't as much competition driving prices down??

    Because the FED has regulated the competition out of the market. If you want a system to build on, then allow for pre-existing conditions, insist on visible pricing before the consumer accepts services, TORT reform, and allow insurance providers to compete across state lines. Why is that only one of those fixes are being proposed and then there's the massive gov't option everyone's fighting about??
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  5. #35
    Ex Member Array BuckeyeEric's Avatar
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    Ah....Something told me I shouldnt have gotten involved in this.

    At least we can agree on the 2A...right?..

  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeEric View Post
    At least we can agree on the 2A...right?..
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  7. #37
    Ex Member Array BuckeyeEric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmizzi View Post
    All I can say is I have lost a ton or respect for Grass Roots NC (and they were on my short list for getting a donation). Talk about fear mongering. As others have said, there is plenty enough wrong with the proposed health care reform bills as they are without trying to make this a 2A case.

    Complete intellectual dishonesty to try to connect those dots.
    I agree...its a L-O-N-G stretch!

  8. #38
    New Member Array Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    Something to build on is when you start small, see how it affects things, and then make changes. Not taking a huge swing at massive changes and try to scale back later.
    Conversely, when a ship is directly headed at the iceberg, one doesn't settle for minor course corrections. Sometimes, drastic action needs to be taken in order to avert disaster.

    Medical expenses are going to bankrupt this country in less than a couple decades unless we drastically change course. Incremental changes will not fix this fundamentally flawed system. I do not think that even the current reforms go far enough, and I say this as a medical professional.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    Well in a free market society, it would make sense that smart executives would leave companies to form their own insurance companies and try to rake in a piece of the pie. So why is it that there isn't as much competition driving prices down??

    Because the FED has regulated the competition out of the market.
    You have no idea what you're talking about. The health insurance market in the United States is a divided into regional monopolies dominated by a handful of companies. Health insurance is a trust, a cartel. The only reason they haven't been broken up by anti-trust laws is because Congress actually made specific exemptions protecting them from prosecution. Seriously, look it up if you don't believe me.

    You act like the government has their foot on the neck of private health insurance companies, but that's totally not the case. Did you know that private health insurance companies are some of the largest recipients in federal subsidies and tax-exemptions? The payroll tax exclusion of employer-sponsored health insurance is the single-largest tax exemption in the federal budget, and all of the money goes directly to health insurance companies. (~$300 billion per year) Medicare Part C, a.k.a."Medicare Advantage", is a program where the federal government gives money directly to private health insurance companies to provide coverage for seniors who are already eligible for regular medicare. (~$100 billion per year). And don't even get me started on what they got from the federal stimulus package, or how they benefit from Medicare Part D, Medicaid, Disability benefits, Emergency Medical Treatment laws, or lack of prosecution for deliberately denying coverage for legitimate claims...

    The federal government alone directly spends about as much in two years supporting the health insurance cartel as it would for the proposed "Public Option" over 10 years... Where is this "Free Market" you speak of?

    -Grym

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    Any attempt to "back door" certain social agendas by using legislation to do so is very bad indeed; I remember well a few years back when the anti-gun crowd was trying (and are still doing so) to use the CDC to categorize gun violence as a disease to enact legislation banning and regulating gun ownership.....
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    Conversely, when a ship is directly headed at the iceberg, one doesn't settle for minor course corrections. Sometimes, drastic action needs to be taken in order to avert disaster.
    Good one!



    You have no idea what you're talking about. The health insurance market in the United States is a divided into regional monopolies dominated by a handful of companies. Health insurance is a trust, a cartel. The only reason they haven't been broken up by anti-trust laws is because Congress actually made specific exemptions protecting them from prosecution. Seriously, look it up if you don't believe me.

    You act like the government has their foot on the neck of private health insurance companies, but that's totally not the case. Did you know that private health insurance companies are some of the largest recipients in federal subsidies and tax-exemptions? The payroll tax exclusion of employer-sponsored health insurance is the single-largest tax exemption in the federal budget, and all of the money goes directly to health insurance companies. (~$300 billion per year) Medicare Part C, a.k.a."Medicare Advantage", is a program where the federal government gives money directly to private health insurance companies to provide coverage for seniors who are already eligible for regular medicare. (~$100 billion per year). And don't even get me started on what they got from the federal stimulus package, or how they benefit from Medicare Part D, Medicaid, Disability benefits, Emergency Medical Treatment laws, or lack of prosecution for deliberately denying coverage for legitimate claims...

    The federal government alone directly spends about as much in two years supporting the health insurance cartel as it would for the proposed "Public Option" over 10 years... Where is this "Free Market" you speak of?

    -Grym
    Everything it appears you've said above backs up my point - there is no free market at work in health care. The FED has regulated and subsidised it to a point where the free market doesn't work. You said yourself that there are regional monopolies by a handful of companies protected by the FED. That's not free market. So why aren't we breaking up the monopolies like we did with Ma Bell years ago? Instead, folks are proposing further gov't involvement

    At the end of the day, I don't hear a single person saying we need to leave the system alone. I wish we could just get together and identify the parts we agree with and start there
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  11. #41
    Ex Member Array 12Rounds's Avatar
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    If I wasn't a disabled vet and got care from the VA I'd have either lost everything I own or died when I lost my insurance through my old work .
    there's no good reason that we can't have health care for everyone. We save lives all over the world and spare no expense but we won't do it for Americans ? Sorry but civilized countries have health care for their citizens . Think of the billions that the insurance companies suck out of the money pool, that would more than pay for health care.

  12. #42
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12Rounds View Post
    Think of the billions that the insurance companies suck out of the money pool, that would more than pay for health care.
    That's right, it's the greedy insurance companies fault. God forbid they should make a profit. It's just insane that we let any business make a profit in this country!!

    If there's a huge demand for gas in a neighborhood, then someone opens a convenient store and charges what the customer is willing to pay. If there is no competition, he gets to charge a higher rate.

    If there is enough of a demand in that neighborhood, then someone else opens up a convenient store across the street and you have price wars driving the costs down.

    I think it's scary that people in this country find it criminal that the insurance company would make a profit. What's next? Maybe the grocery store shouldn't be allowed to make a profit either? After all poor people have to eat too. What about the furnace guy, he shouldn't be allowed a profit, or plumbers. Poor people need plumbers... We could get costs down so everyone can afford that furnace repair if we just didn't allow anyone to take a profit along with what they charged their customers.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  13. #43
    Ex Member Array BuckeyeEric's Avatar
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    You know, I’ve been going back and fourth on some PM's concerning this issue because I just couldn’t keep my mouth shut and had to post my view. I have found that I lack the intelligence to do so. I am far from an apologetic who can reasonably debate this issue. I have seen that from the above replies, there are far more ppl that can better suit that role other then me.

    All I can hope for is something better then what we have right now....life sucks at the present moment. Leo, firefighters, paramedic's and other first responders are being laid off or furloughed. Scioto County just went into fiscal emergency. This was the first county in Ohio's history. No lending by banks means no new construction which means no jobs. Things are bad...and they can’t stay this way.

    A majority of America voted for Obama…all I can do is hope.

    But hey, we all like guns right!

  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeEric View Post
    All I can hope for is something better then what we have right now....life sucks at the present moment. Leo, firefighters, paramedic's and other first responders are being laid off or furloughed. Scioto County just went into fiscal emergency. This was the first county in Ohio's history. No lending by banks means no new construction which means no jobs. Things are bad...and they can’t stay this way.
    Who is John Galt?


    But hey, we all like guns right!
    A day at the range always makes me feel better about things Even if it's just for a little while

  15. #45
    Distinguished Member Array mr.stuart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangoseal View Post
    Rod and Stuart...

    Im defending the OP not the thread.

    How can you both selfishly attack this poster for putting up a thread that he clearly found else where and posted thinking "Maybe we should understand what is going on that is or could be deeper than just health care".

    What is blatantly obvious is that you simply adore Obama's attempted socialized health care program and you feel that someone is attacking your belief in his royal holy designation by God to place forced govt rule in our lives.

    You need to delete your response or think with a more open mind and less liberally.

    Did I misread you? Forgive me ahead of time while you restate your less obvious political bias in a thread that obviously references the 2a several times over not written in the words of the OP.

    He makes sense linking gun violence to high health cost. Ban guns and you could save money on health cost. Something the American left would buy instantly. Go ahead and send me your guns; I can just use them to assist in securing your freedoms for you.
    Assume what you will. I will not restate anything. I do not adore politicians.

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