Is anyone really surprised that this happened? Frankly, I'm not.
This is a discussion on Greensburg gun grab...... within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; This was posted on the KSCCW forum.....A forum dedicated to concealed carry in Kansas. I thought you might find this interesting.... /www.ksccw.com/site/showthread.php?t=6209...
This was posted on the KSCCW forum.....A forum dedicated to concealed carry in Kansas. I thought you might find this interesting....
Is anyone really surprised that this happened? Frankly, I'm not.
Trust in God and keep your powder dry
"A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source
I'm not either....I am actually surprised that we haven't heard more about these kind of situations happening....
Got:Please post content or another urlThe address is not valid
I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.
I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.
Veni, Vidi, Velcro
Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”
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NRA Life Member
That right there is some scary stuff!Originally Posted by Patricia Stoneking
I am damn proud that there was one family willing to take a stand. But what would have been the price paid?
Thank God there was a lone KBI agent who intervened with a cooler head. But in the midst of a disaster, when people are rattled, scared, and chaos all around, it seems the Government doesn't care about that, they just want the guns!
We Are Living In Dangerous Times!
Kansas did not have an "Emergency Powers Law" (Katrina Law) in place at the time which forbids gun confiscation of homeowners weapons. I don't know if they have one yet.
My State does have a "Katrina Law!" But what does that really mean? If they come to confiscate your guns after a disaster and your State has a law which prohibits it, are you covered if you shoot an overzealous Govt. Agent who threatens you at gunpoint?
I seriously doubt it!
But he is trying to enforce an illegal order! Doesn't that in fact make him a criminal? Or a looter?
Just where exactly do people stand?
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
I don't know what happened in Greensburg or what the law is in Kansas. In my Missouri town while I was mayor, we had two FEMA/SEMA type emergencies. A tornado and a prolonged ice storm - power outage, trees down, lines down, winter mess.
As mayor, I declared states of emergency per state law. My declaration specifics were up to me. They were different for each situation.
For instance on the tornado, I blocked off the areas of town hit by the tornado from visitors. No one but residents and their guests could get in without a pass from the fire department. It was up to the residents whether they stayed home or not. Most left someone behind to watch the house/neighborhood. The general power outage resulted in a night time curfew until the power was restored.
The ice storm resulted in a general power outage. The emergency declaration was a night time curfew. The emergency declarations were written and signed and nailed to the door of city hall. Copies given to the police and responders. That simple.
Both night time curfews were enforced by the police in the manner they saw fit. Basically, the police chief wanted the power to keep nonresidents out of town. So that is how it was used. If they found locals out with good reason, they were allowed to do their business. However, if a nonresident was discovered in town after dark, they were escorted out of town under penalty of arrest.
Everything went very well. Local elected mayors have more control than they think. You don't have to cede control of the civil apparatus to any state or federal government agency unless you want.
Here in Missouri, the state emergency management agency is very helpful and professional. They make sure you have anything you want and not one thing that you don't want. They asked me at all times if I wanted any kind of assistance. The other state agencies such as the highway patrol and highway department came in and did the traffic control on the highways. Nothing was forced down our throat. FEMA came by and with SEMA explained how to keep the records necessary for our town to obtain what help we could after the recovery. SEMA was especially helpful with guidance on how to clean up the mess and document it so we could get every bit of financial assistance available.
Under mutual aid agreements that I had negotiated with our neighbor cities in Missouri we had utility crews and street departments clearing streets and restoring services. The point is the local elected executive is in charge unless he or she gives up control. The other point is the plans and agreements have to be in place before the emergency. In this day and age, legal and liability issues have to be specified in advance with written contracts to keep everybody safe.
It helps if you have competent local officials that have the sense to plan for emergencies, helpful state agencies, and the support of your community. In other words, if you ban outsiders from destroyed neighborhoods, the local volunteers that man the roadblocks have got to be willing to do that at your request. The community has to be willing to accept a night time curfew. Almost all of this is up to the residents and local voters. So if you have crappy outcomes in government, look in the collective mirror. The problem is with the voter and the kind of leaders they elect.
I also think it was amusing when the rubberneckers and out of town crooks bucked the ban from the damaged neighborhoods. People say the dumbest things, like you can't keep me from public streets. This is a free country. etc. My response was try me. Nobody did. Even with all of this, some scam artist got two hundred dollars cash from an eighty year old widow to clean up her yard. He went to get his truck and never returned. So, in spite of all you do in a disaster, the criminal element always gets a little from the misery of others. This applies to government criminals and civilian criminals.
Not working for me either.
"gettin' there is half the fun."
The Greensburg tornado was in May 2007 and there are a couple of updates to the story.
1st - the NRA refutes the intial claims of illegal gun grabs.
NRA-ILA :: Update on Greensburg, Kansas
2nd - Kansas passed a bill to prohibit illegal gun grabs (making an illegal action more illegal?) which was signed by then governor (and anti-gun enthusiast) Kathleen Sebelius (current Secretary of Health and Human Services)
NRA-ILA :: Kansas Governor Signs Two Pro-Gun Bills into Law!
My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
- Thomas Jefferson
Just another example of an out-of-control, over-reaching, oppressive government.
This shows us how important it is to keep a very watchful eye on legislators and how they vote.
The anti's not only need to be voted out, but we need to actively campaign against them.
Passiveness doesn't cut it.
yeah see the problem I have with that law they passed...and similar laws in other states is...what's the point? Really. They already have laws against what happened. It's called the CONSTITUTION. What makes folks think anyone that violates an existing law is going to somehow magically decide to follow another one of the same type? I don't get that logic. It's the same as that used by anti's trying to set up their nanny state laws.
Ok it looks like some of you are having trouble viewing this......This should help.....
I could not find the original Greensburg thread so I started another one. I have talked to many residents who relayed to me first hand their experiences. All that I originally reported has now been verified by the actual individuals who were involved and is no longer second hand information.
The following article will appear in the next issue of the CHIPS which is the KSRA member newsletter. I am also turning over all of my findings and contact info to the NRA and to several legislators.
GREENSBURG GUN CONFISCATIONS
By Patricia A. Stoneking
I would like to start this report by noting that I have personally spoke with several sources who were directly involved in the incidents that I am about to report that took place in Greensburg, KS in the aftermath of the horrible CAT 5 tornado that ravaged and destroyed that town. I will not be divulging their names in this article as they have requested I not do so.
The first thing I would like for everyone to acknowledge is that the residents of Greensburg were forced to evacuate and that, in and of itself, was an illegal action as martial law had not been declared. There were many people who wanted to stay and they were threatened with arrest and forcible removal if they did not leave as ordered. The tornado happened at 9:46pm on Friday evening, May 4, 2007 and they were forced to leave within a couple hours of it, being given no time to collect themselves or assess the damages or even try to pick up anything such as guns and valuables. Ed Klummp, Police Chiefs Association, testified at the House committee hearing with a position opposing The Emergency Powers Act and said the evacuations were so they could search for bodies and shut off gas and power and that the evacuation was for the safety of the residents. I have been told by a reliable source that the electricity was shut off prior to the tornado striking and
the gas was shut off within a few hours after. It would seem that the evacuation was not necessary in light of that information. Perhaps the position should have been that those who want to leave be provided a way to do so and those who wish to stay be allowed to stay.
This town was locked down tight for several days and no one was allowed in or out. The only people in that town during this time were Sheriffs Officers, Kansas Highway Patrol Officers, ATF, FEMA, National Guard, Police Officers from surrounding areas and some volunteers from Ft. Riley, generally speaking, government officials. Authorities claim no one else was there or could have gotten in or out. Interestingly enough, I have been told repeatedly by all sources that the media was allowed to roam freely without escorts through Greensburg. Shall we ask why residents were not allowed to stay on their own property but media was allowed unfettered access?
Many guns and other valuables such as jewelry have gone permanently missing and have never been recovered. There were some houses that were not destroyed and were in tact and habitable. Those folks did not want to leave but were forced to do so. When they returned they found their houses had been broken in to and all of their guns missing. One gentleman reports that when he went to claim his guns, taken from his secure home, they were returned to him in damaged condition. They were not damaged by the tornado. They were locked up in his home and illegally confiscated. So how do we suppose that damage occurred?
Guns and ammunition that were collected were taken to a trailer and an ATF agent manned the trailer. When people first came to collect their guns they were asked for proof of ownership such as receipts and serial number lists and they had to fill out a 4473 and get a NICS approval before they could claim their guns. No one had paperwork, receipts, or lists of serial numbers because it had all blown away. Later into the process they quit demanding these items and asked only for a list with make, model and description of the firearm. In one case, in the collection trailer, a gun case was claimed by one man who had a very nice trap shotgun in it and when he opened the undamaged and closed case, he found not his nice BT99 but another damaged gun that did not belong to him. That $1500.00 BT99 has never turned up. One comment made by all sources is that many “nice” guns were never recovered. Every source has reported that little to no care was taken with
any of the firearms retrieved and taken into protective custody and they were not catalogued in any fashion. One resident said “they were just thrown in there in piles”.
One family, whose house was not damaged, reported that officers were going to remove them at gun point when they refused to leave their property and a gun fight was only averted when a KBI agent stepped in front of the other officers and pleaded with them to consider what they were doing. Those residents had taken up their shotguns and were not going to leave. We can only say thank heavens for that KBI officer who had the sense to realize what pressing these people at gun point would mean.
As I talked to these residents of Greensburg the accounts of their personal experiences kept flowing and they all had certain things in common. Their rights were violated, guns were confiscated illegally and they were forced to leave their homes illegally. When government agents came to their property they did not ask them if they were okay or needed help. They were there to forcibly remove them and confiscate their property. Many of them expressed fear of reprisal should they go public. Do they have the names of the officials who they believe acted illegally and inappropriately? In many cases, the answer is yes. Did all officials act illegally and inappropriately? NO. Many were very helpful and had great concern for the well being of the residents and were there to assist them with the best of intentions.
The people in Greensburg are a close, tight knit community, everyone knows everyone kind of place. They were very resentful of government coming in and telling them what they had to do. They would have preferred to stay and help each other locate valuables and guns and not leave their property. Several residents have reported that FEMA did more harm than good and would not even cooperate with local law enforcement. Residents of the town who were firefighters and trained in rescue operations wanted to stay and help their neighbors and friends and were told they could not.
The many stories that have been shared with me are too lengthy to include in this report. I just pose these questions. If there was even one act of misconduct or illegal activity by any governmental official are we to stand by idly and allow it without complaint? Should those who broke the law be allowed to continue to “serve” as law enforcement officials without question? Should the residents of Greensburg have to fear reprisal if they report and file complaints about what happened to them? Should Kansas and its legislative body do nothing to see to it that this never happens again?
I am turning over all of the information I have obtained to the NRA complete with names and numbers of those residents which I have spoke with. I am also going to turn the information over to some members of the Kansas House and Senate. I would urge KSRA members to contact their legislators and demand that a full investigation be conducted in to the events that took place in Greensburg. HB 2811, The Emergency Powers Act is a bill designed to prevent this exact kind of thing from happening and provide a remedy if it does (see that article). At the time of this publication that bill is in the Senate Federal and State Affairs Committee. Rise up Kansas! Let your voice be heard! Don’t let your town be next!!
So what's different between what's posted here and the old thread with reference to the same person and original forum??
Looks like very old news to me. As someone already said, the NRA claims the gun grab didn't happen and the quote in the post says the person is going to turn over their evidence to the NRA for evaluation....
"Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."
Who is John Galt?
So the KBI agent stepped in front of other agents to perhaps keep them from shooting some locals. Do you know who the trigger-happy agents were, or who they worked for?
You raise some good points, Bark'n. Situations like that may involve some life-or-death decisions at a moment's notice. It shouldn't have to come to decisions like those: the government should be there to help us help ourselves, or to offer help when we can't help ourselves, not to prevent us from taking care of ourselves.
Fortunately we in Missouri have a law against gun confiscations, but can we expect that to always be followed? If it isn't, then we'll be in the same situations the folks in Kansas were in: looking down the barrel of some gov't agency's guns, being told to comply or else.
The longer I live, and the more of stuff like this I see, the more I want to tell the gov't as a whole to go screw themselves.
That's depressing. I may need to buy another firearm and more ammo to help lift me up.
Tiwee, sounds like you had all your ducks in a row beforehand.After investigating these complaints, there was no evidence of any illegal gun confiscations or seizures.I don't get it: the first article says no illegal gun confiscations or seizures occurred, yet the second article mentions the law passed to prevent firearm confiscation "such as occurred... after the tornado devastation in Greensburg."Today, Monday, April 21, Governor Kathleen Sebelius (D) signed two important pro-gun bills into law.
The first, House Bill 2280, will protect law-abiding gun owners’ right to bear arms, and would prevent the confiscation of firearms during a state of emergency, such as occurred following Hurricane Katrina and after the tornado devastation in Greensburg.
Are they acknowledging confiscations occurred, but saying they were legal at the time?
The longer I live, the less I trust our gov't, any form of it. All gov't officials are only people, and too often they only want to control others in some way.
The gov't and I would get along a lot better if they'd keep their hands off my guns and my money.