The Law? ATF, Mexican Gangs, and Eastern Washington

The Law? ATF, Mexican Gangs, and Eastern Washington

This is a discussion on The Law? ATF, Mexican Gangs, and Eastern Washington within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Gun show loophole sees many weapons smuggled into Mexico | Yakima Herald-Republic Online Gun show loophole sees many weapons smuggled into Mexico by CHRIS BRISTOL ...

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Thread: The Law? ATF, Mexican Gangs, and Eastern Washington

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    The Law? ATF, Mexican Gangs, and Eastern Washington

    Gun show loophole sees many weapons smuggled into Mexico | Yakima Herald-Republic Online

    Gun show loophole sees many weapons smuggled into Mexico
    by CHRIS BRISTOL
    Yakima Herald-Republic

    YAKIMA, Wash. -- ATF agent Jessie Summers tried to deal with misconceptions before he talked about the illegal gun trade in Central Washington.

    "We're not here to take anybody's guns," he told a group of city and law enforcement officials from across the state gathered at the Yakima Convention Center. "The image of us being jackbooted thugs doesn't hold water."

    Not that Summers is worried so much about public image of federal agents. He and fellow ATF agent Steve Foreman said Thursday they were much more concerned about the so-called "gun show loophole" that allows unlicensed firearm dealers to circumvent background checks.

    Two days before a gun show at Central Washington State Fair Park, Summers and Foreman warned that a large percentage of guns that are smuggled into Mexico come from gun shows in Eastern Washington.

    According to the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Washington state is the No. 4 source in the country for illegal guns in Mexico.

    "Actually, it's just Eastern Washington," Foreman said. "When it comes to gun shows, this part of the state is wide open."

    Foreman and Summers cited a recent case when rival drug cartels got into a shootout in Tijuana. Fifteen of the 60 firearms -- many of them semi-automatic assault rifles and high-powered pistols like the FN Herstal -- recovered were traced back to the Tri-Cities, they said.

    While the U.S. has become a lucrative market for Mexican drugs, Mexico has become a lucrative market for American guns, the ATF agents said. A gun that retails for $1,000 here can sell for up to $4,000 south of the border.

    Representatives from 27 cities across the state attended the daylong forum, which was organized by Seattle city officials and hosted by Yakima Mayor Dave Edler. The topics included Violent Crime & the Business Community (pharmacy robberies), gang crime, domestic violence, and the role of cities in addressing violent crime.

    The ATF session on gun shows drew about 30 people, including Yakima County Prosecutor Jim Hagarty, County Sheriff Ken Irwin, Yakima City Councilwomen Kathy Coffey and Maureen Adkison and Yakima police Capt. Jeff Schneider.

    The ATF agents made it clear that their beef is not with licensed firearm dealers, who are required to do background checks on buyers no matter where business is conducted, whether it's a storefront, a home or a gun show.

    Instead, they complained of the so-called "gun show loophole" that allows unlicensed dealers to get around the government's background-check requirement by masquerading as "private collectors."

    Summers, who is in charge of the ATF's Yakima field office, said a majority of dealers, legitimate or not, won't sell guns to sketchy characters, or someone who appears to be a gang member.

    But a small percentage of unlicensed dealers have no such scruples, he said.

    "It's cash and carry and then it's gone in the wind," Summers said of gun shows. "Ninety-nine percent are good sellers. It's those very few out there in it for a buck who's killing it for the rest of us."

    Added Foreman, "He'll sell to anybody and everybody, trade up or trade down, he doesn't care ... It's actually a great business, if you don't get caught."

    The ATF agents said they have to walk a fine line between policing gun shows and not appearing too aggressive, given the political climate around gun laws. They said they're often accused of harassment if they ask too many questions, and that Congress has held a tight rein on the agency.

    Summers and Foreman acknowledged that requiring background checks at gun shows wouldn't end the illegal gun trade but said it would be a deterrent and help federal agents trace illegal sales more easily.

    They also suggested that Washington should adopt California's law requiring a record of all private gun transfers and that an off-duty officer be stationed at gun shows. Last year, a man from Granger stole a pistol at a gun show at the Convention Center and fled on foot. He was arrested at a nearby 7-Eleven store.

    Officials from across the state attended Thursday's crime forum at the Convention Center, including Vancouver City Manager Pat McDonnell and Spokane police Chief Anne Kirkpatrick. A number of local dignitaries were also on hand, including state Rep. Norm Johnson, R-Yakima, and Sen. Curtis King, R-Yakima.

    In opening remarks, Edler noted Yakima's problems with gangs and guns, and alluded to his controversial membership in the national gun-control group Mayors Against Illegal Guns.

    "Boy, has that caused me some headache and grief," he said. "But I'm willing to take it if it's something that can help make my community safer."

    Part of the goal for Edler and other city officials was to lay the groundwork for an organized lobbying effort in Olympia on violent crime.

    The Harborview Injury Prevention and Research Center commissioned a statewide survey in February to try and assess public views on gun laws.

    Bob Scales, a senior analyst for the city of Seattle, said the survey found that 88 percent of the registered voters favored restrictions on gun show sales. In Yakima, support among voters was 68 percent.

    Scales said support for restrictions on gun show sales was 65 percent, even among those who identified themselves as members of the National Rifle Association.

    He said the survey should come as an eye-opener to lawmakers, whom he accused of failing to enact common-sense restrictions like background checks at gun shows out of deference to the NRA.

    "In Olympia, except for mental health issues, they don't want to touch anything to do with firearms," he said.

    * Chris Bristol can be reached at 509-577-7748 or cbristol@yakimaherald.com.
    I would have killed to be there and ask a few questions. (figuratively)

    The ATF acts like the big bad wolf. That is why they have a bad reputation.

    It is worth noting that it is perfectly legal for an individual to sell a firearm to another individual. You can do this at a gun show or somewhere else. There are no reporting requirements in Washington State. The ATF agent makes it seem like this legal transaction is somehow the cause of all drug violence in Mexico.

    If people want to break the law, they will!

    How can ATF trace firearms that are sold through personal transactions? How is ATF so sure that crimes were committed in Eastern Washington? Do they use the location of the original new in box sale on form 4473 and assume the gun was never moved (that is until it was moved to Mexico)?

    If Mexico has 60 firearms recovered in one incident, they are having a WAR and little paper trail issues 1500 miles away are not going to stop it.
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.


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    Distinguished Member Array PastorPack's Avatar
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    Yeah, this couldn't have anything to do with our "see no evil" policies on illegal immigration.
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    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    A meeting of anti-gun people spouting anti-gun retoric. In their survey, how many people did they ask? They didn't ask me. I call BS.

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    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    "It's cash and carry and then it's gone in the wind," Summers said of gun shows. "Ninety-nine percent are good sellers. It's those very few out there in it for a buck who's killing it for the rest of us."
    We must all give up our right because ONE PERCENT of gun dealers are dirty.

    Added Foreman, "He'll sell to anybody and everybody, trade up or trade down, he doesn't care ... It's actually a great business, if you don't get caught."
    It's easy not getting caught because background checks and registration do nothing to achieve this. Border control certainly would, though.

    The ATF agents said they have to walk a fine line between policing gun shows and not appearing too aggressive, given the political climate around gun laws. They said they're often accused of harassment if they ask too many questions, and that Congress has held a tight rein on the agency.
    The ATF being accused of "aggressive" behavior doesn't come from asking questions at gun shows.

    Summers and Foreman acknowledged that requiring background checks at gun shows wouldn't end the illegal gun trade but said it would be a deterrent and help federal agents trace illegal sales more easily.
    And tracing these guns has done exactly what so far?

    They also suggested that Washington should adopt California's law requiring a record of all private gun transfers and that an off-duty officer be stationed at gun shows. Last year, a man from Granger stole a pistol at a gun show at the Convention Center and fled on foot. He was arrested at a nearby 7-Eleven store.
    Considering the problem California has with criminal use of firearms, I wouldn't be too hot about using them as a model. And one guy? ONE guy stole a pistol... last year? This kind of event is obviously so rare they don't even have a statistic for it.

    In opening remarks, Edler noted Yakima's problems with gangs and guns, and alluded to his controversial membership in the national gun-control group Mayors Against Illegal Guns.
    New laws will control lawless behavior?

    "Boy, has that caused me some headache and grief," he said. "But I'm willing to take it if it's something that can help make my community safer."
    Your willing to take it because organizations like that have political rewards.

    The Harborview Injury Prevention and Research Center commissioned a statewide survey in February to try and assess public views on gun laws.

    Bob Scales, a senior analyst for the city of Seattle, said the survey found that 88 percent of the registered voters favored restrictions on gun show sales. In Yakima, support among voters was 68 percent.
    Why is Scales giving us conclusions from Harborview's report instead of the people who actually prepared the report?

    Scales said support for restrictions on gun show sales was 65 percent, even among those who identified themselves as members of the National Rifle Association.
    Notice how this carefully worded sentence implies that 65% of NRA members (or people who "identified themselves" as members) are in favor of restrictions on gun shows.

    He said the survey should come as an eye-opener to lawmakers, whom he accused of failing to enact common-sense restrictions like background checks at gun shows out of deference to the NRA.
    There's that superbly ironic phrase again. It's the absence of common sense that leads to the kind of legislation that these people hope to enact.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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    Member Array billdeserthills's Avatar
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    I'll be happy to tell you how the ATF does firearms registration. They now have a new computer based 4473 form called E-Trace, anyone who uses this form automatically has their info instantly transmitted to the Feds. To add to that why not click my link and read all about it:
    http://www.jpfo.org/articles-assd/etrace-letter.htm

    Maybe you have heard of the JPFO, they are one of the Uncompromising Pro-Gun Groups. They are not happy to have found that the traced info is stored in a national database of which access is allowed by other countries around the world. Why would the ATF allow your info to be seen by a dictator from another country?

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    Secure the border. If there were no illegal aliens here to begin with we wouldn't have the problem of illegal aliens purchasing firearms at gun shows.

    Can we send the ATF to back up Border Patrol agents?
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    Member Array Tint Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PastorPack View Post


    Yeah, this couldn't have anything to do with our "see no evil" policies on illegal immigration.
    This is something you really need to keep talking about.....Below is the UK government finally admiting they got it wrong over immigration.......For years the other polictical parties have tried to get immigration talked about, only to be shouted down and called racisit.
    The UK is heading for a Pop of over 70 million, the UK land mass is half of kalifornia..Yes that is how small the UK is..and they cannot see restricting immigration is wrong???

    Alan Johnson: We got it wrong on immigration | News


    Former home secretary John Reid today backed the man currently in the post and also admitted the Government had made mistakes over immigration.

    Mr Reid praised Alan Johnson's “honest appraisal” over the impact of hundreds of thousands of newcomers to Britain in recent years. He stressed that the economic benefits of immigration had to be weighed against the social
    costs.

    “Alan Johnson is right to accept that mistakes have been made in the past,” said Mr Reid, home secretary from 2006-07. “Immigration is too important a social issue to be ignored or treated with complacency.

    "We must ensure that the economic benefits of
    the movement of labour into Britain are weighed against the social costs — in terms of housing, health education and other social services — that the new workers and their families require.

    “And above all we must make sure that those services are provided.”

    In his first speech on the topic, Mr Johnson admitted that Labour and past administrations had been “maladroit” in the handling of the issue.

    He accepted some parts of Britain were “disproportionately” affected by immigration, with an influx of new arrivals putting a “strain” on jobs and services.

    However, he also argued that Britain is now far more successful at dealing with migration than most of its European and North American neighbours.

    The speech at the Royal Society for the Arts in London was seen as signalling a tougher line on migration. It contrasted with Mr Johnson previously telling a committee of MPs he did not
    “lie awake at night” worrying about the population hitting 70 million.

    He criticised Tory plans for a cap on migrant numbers as “arbitrary” and claimed it would hurt businesses who needed to hire skilled staff.

    Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling said: “Three months ago the Home Secretary said he isn't losing sleep over immigration. Now he's admitting that it's putting massive pressure on many communities. What we need is a tightly
    controlled system.”

    Sir Andrew Green, chairman of thinktank Migrationwatch UK, said: “This apology is three million immigrants too late. Labour have secretly encouraged mass immigration so as to engineer a huge change in our society.”

    Mr Johnson later appeared to distance himself from attempts to introduce detention for terror suspects for up to 90 days. In the aftermath of the 7/7 attacks in 2005, the Government had “perhaps tried to go too far” on anti-terror laws.

    “That was probably an understandable feeling, that we should be more draconian. But perhaps that wasn't the right way to go,” Mr Johnson added.


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    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    "The image of us being jackbooted thugs doesn't hold water."

    Yeah, tell that to the former residents of Waco, Texas.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

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    Nicely done, Jumpwing. Some of these people desperately want to believe enacting more gun laws will solve unrelated problems. It's unfortunate nobody will examine just who is buying the guns that are going to Mexico (even though guns originating in the US are a small percentage of the firepower available to the cartels and don't include automatic weapons, grenade launchers, land mines, etc).

    I think the uncomfortable conclusion for liberal investigators would be that illegal aliens in the employ of the drug cartels are the ones purchasing the guns from unscrupulous dealers and hauling them back across the border, along with marijuana grown in federal forests across the western US. Now, when faced with a problem of THAT magnitude, it's not surprising the feds go after the low hanging fruit...gun shows.

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    Isn't it rediculous that the current administration, which wants tighter controls on guns are the same ones that want open borders. I'd be curious to know how many of the illegal guns in Mexico were smuggled in by border jumpers who entered this country unlawfully.
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    Let's be fair to BATFE agents, not all are dirty rotten scoundrels...it's only 99% that make the other 1% look bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Let's be fair to BATFE agents, not all are dirty rotten scoundrels...it's only 99% that make the other 1% look bad.
    that was good!

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    Member Array billdeserthills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
    Isn't it rediculous that the current administration, which wants tighter controls on guns are the same ones that want open borders. I'd be curious to know how many of the illegal guns in Mexico were smuggled in by border jumpers who entered this country unlawfully.
    Hell, our own retarded gov't gave m-16's to Mexihole!
    I remember last year the ATF made a bust on mexican police who had for almost 1 year! been making private sale gun purchases. Thanks ATF, are you guys 100% sure that waiting a year is quite enough time to get what you need for a solid bust?

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    Member Array JungleJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    "The image of us being jackbooted thugs doesn't hold water."

    Yeah, tell that to the former residents of Waco, Texas.
    The ATF messed up the operation but the 'former residents' were criminals plain and simple.

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    Senior Member Array dripster's Avatar
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    Gotta love the "off duty officer" posted at gun shows insert. F@#$ that, it's lawful commerce baby like it not!
    One more step and it's on!

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