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Firearms obsolete?

3K views 35 replies 28 participants last post by  rljohns 
#1 ·
So what do you think happens with the 2A if a future technology not yet envisioned or invented makes firearms obsolete? Firearms made swords and bows obsolete. Swords and bows made sticks and stones obsolete...

Or do you think firearms are like electricity, communications and transportation that can only get better and never be obsolete?

Thoughts?
 
#2 ·
The 2nd A refers to your right to bear arms not rifles or handguns. One can "arm" themselves with a rock despite their obsolesence. So, if a better mouse trap obviates the current projectile hurling devices, we'll have to hope some brave folks will set case law and the 2nd Amenment stays in tact.
 
#3 ·
People are still bowhunting, and I sure wouldn't want to get hit with one of those broadheads nowadays; recently there was a post on here about a guy defending himself with a samurai sword, cutting the arm off of his assailant I believe.

I don't think any of those weapons will ever be obsolete.
 
#33 ·
Which is why I have always questioned how it is that no one seems concerned with laws restricting knives or other non-firearm weapons.
As long as we restrict ourselves to the idea that arms only mean self defense firearms we will lose the battle.

Michael
 
#5 ·
You can make a good argument that "arms" refers to the same basic type of weapon used by the average infantryman of the day.

So, if in the future our infantry are armed with Star-trek style phasers, we get to have 'em too!:tongue: Of course, they'll probably cost a zillion dollars, but whatever...:embarassed:
 
#18 ·
I suspect that such future weapons will be considered too powerful for commoners to possess - only officers of the State and standing military will be allowed to have them. We'll be stuck with what we have, now, unless we do something about it, in the meantime. Revoking the NFA would be good.
 
#6 ·
Obiously, the invention of gun powder has been around since the 1st Century...it's not going to be replaced anytime in the future, not in our lifetimes, our children's lifetimes, nor our grandchildrens' lifetimes.
Will weapons change with technology? Probably, but the 1911, Glocks, and many others will be around forever...well almost forever.:blink:
OMOYMV
 
#7 ·
Firearms are nothing more, or less, than a type of 'arm'.

Main Entry: 3 arm
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English armes (plural) weapons, from Anglo-French, from Latin arma
Date: 13th century

1 a : a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : firearm b : a combat branch (as of an army) c : an organized branch of national defense (as the navy)
2 plural a : the hereditary heraldic devices of a family b : heraldic devices adopted by a government
3 plural a : active hostilities : warfare <a call to arms> b : military service

— up in arms : aroused and ready to undertake a fight or conflict <voters up in arms over the proposed law>

Source - arm - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
What ever future arms might come along be it electronic, chemical, powered by air or be farts in a can they too as they are in the current (i.e. OC/CS) are and would be deemed an 'arm' and thus relevant to and protected by the 2A.

This is a question that at a forum such as this should not be asked as simply because it's a no brainer.

- Janq

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
- The United States Constitution, Bill of Rights, Amendment II
Source - LII: Constitution
 
#8 ·
Obsolete is immaterial.
John Deere two cylinder tractors are obsolete.
They are working fools and still till the earth.
A team of horses is obsolete.
The local Amish use them every day to very good effect.
With e-mail, IMs and texts, letters are obsolete.
I still write letters.
Maybe I am obsolete.
I am still working, still earning a paycheck, still providing for my family and just published my second book.
Obsolete?
 
#11 ·
Firearms are changing for sure. But the more sophisticated they get, the more links in the chain that you have to watch. I don't see myself ever owning one of these guns, but I will have my current stash of weapons forever.

November 11, 2009

Army News Service|by Lt. Col. Christopher Lehner
--
FORT BELVOIR, Va. - A Soldier successfully shoulder-fired a "smart" High Explosive Airburst, or HEAB round for the first time Aug. 11 from the XM-25 weapon system at Aberdeen Test Center, Md.
The Army plans on purchasing more than 12,500 XM-25 systems starting in 2012, which will be enough to put one in each Infantry squad and Special Forces team, according to officials at Program Executive Office-Soldier.
At first glance, the XM-25 looks like something out of a Sci-Fi movie. It features an array of sights, sensors and lasers housed in a Target Acquisition Fire Control unit on top, an oversized magazine behind the trigger mechanism, and a short, ominous barrel wrapped by a recoil dampening sleeve.
Unlike a Hollywood prop, however, this weapon is very real and designed to accurately deliver an explosive round that neutralizes targets at distances of up to 700 meters - well past the range of the rifles and carbines that most Soldiers carry today.
"What makes this weapon system truly revolutionary is the ability to target the enemy, pass on this information to the sensors and microchips of its 25mm HEAB round, and have that round detonate over the target," explained Maj. Shawn Murray, a Soldier Weapons assistant product manager in PEO Soldier, the organization responsible for developing the XM-25.
"When the HEAB round explodes, the target is peppered with fragmentation," Murray said. "Our studies indicate that the XM-25 with HEAB is 300 percent more effective at incapacitating the enemy than current weapons at the squad level."
Because of the XM-25's unique TAFC and HEAB round, Soldiers will be able to engage enemy forces located in the open and "in defilade" -behind cover, such as walls, rocks, trenches, or inside buildings. The semi-automatic weapon's magazine holds four 25mm rounds and can be employed at night or during inclement weather thanks to the XM25's built-in thermal sight.
After only five minutes of instruction at the Aberdeen Test Center, Sgt. Logan E. Diveley from the 180th Infantry Regiment was able to put his first HEAB round through a building's window and take out an enemy mannequin at 200 meters.
When asked what he thought of the weapon, Diveley responded, "I've been in over nine contacts with the enemy during my two tours in Iraq. Their ambushes were usually initiated with an IED and followed up with small arms fire from behind walls and buildings, places where it was hard for us to get at them. The XM-25 would have taken care of things and made our jobs much easier."
Once downrange and in the building where the defeated enemy mannequin lay, Maj. Murray noted the limited collateral damage associated with the XM-25.
"Because of its pinpoint accuracy and relatively small warheads, the XM25 can neutralize an enemy without the need to destroy a whole building," Murray said. "For our counter-insurgency operations to be successful, it is important to keep collateral damage to a minimum and to protect the civilian population. I think the XM-25 will prove itself many times over in Afghanistan," Murray said.
The XM-25 is being developed by PEO Soldier, the Army acquisition organization responsible for nearly every piece of equipment worn or carried by Soldiers. This includes items ranging from socks, to weapons, to advanced sensor and communication devices. PEO Soldier bases much of its work on the feedback from individual Soldiers, developing or procuring solutions to meet those needs.
The development of the XM-25 is one such a program, designed to provide Soldiers a solution for dealing with enemies in the open and behind cover that is more precise, quicker to employ, and more cost effective than mortar, artillery, or airstrikes.
A Battlefield Scenario for the XM-25
An American patrol nears a walled, Afghan village when an enemy combatant looks over the wall and fires his AK-47 rifle at the oncoming U.S. Soldiers. The Americans return fire with their rifles and maneuver, but find it difficult to neutralize the enemy rifleman who repeatedly exposes himself for only a second, shoots, then ducks behind the thick wall. At this time, the patrol leader calls for the XM-25 gunner to take action.
Immediately, the XM-25 gunner aims the laser range-finder at the top of the wall where the enemy last ducked down. The gunner presses the laser range finder button on the front of the XM-25's trigger guard and records a distance to the wall of 451 meters. The distance is displayed on the TAFC's optical lens along with an adjusted aim point, or "cross hair," to help the soldier better aim the XM-25.
The adjusted aim point takes into account air pressure, temperature, and the ballistics of the 25mm round for the given range of 451 meters. The soldier then uses the increment button on the trigger guard and adds one more meter to the firing solution since the enemy combatant is about one meter behind the wall.
Upon pulling the trigger, the TAFC programs the HEAB round in the chamber of the weapon, telling the round to explode at 452 meters from launch point. The HEAB round departs the rifled barrel, arms at 30 meters, clears the top of the wall at 451 meters and explodes its two warheads at 452 meters, right above the enemy. The entire firing sequence takes the gunner less than five seconds to aim and fire and another 2.5 seconds for the round to fly and explode over the target, thereby clearing the way for the patrol to resume its mission.
(Lt. Col. Christopher Lehner writes for PEO Soldier - Soldier Weapons)
 
#13 ·
I think this is a really interesting and important question. I fully agree that the word in 2A is arms, and not firearms. However, I don't think that is the way the Supremes and most courts have interpreted things; and certainly our law makers seem to distinguish between types of arms in the law. E.g., difference between CHL and CWP. Difference between full auto and semi-auto.

There are plenty of laws prohibiting the carrying or possession of all manner of arms and other "defensive" devices; --- as compared with firearms. Knife laws are a great example as knives of one sort or another, were perhaps the original arm after sticks and stones. The recent thread on OC is a great example to as OC too is an arm, just a modern one not in existence in 1788; and same for the taser.

I think if some hand held science fiction laser-like weapon were ever developed, there would be plenty of law makers and judges who would find that the new device is not an arm within the meaning of the constitution. They would argue the original meaning of the constitution was firearms, and subsequent inventions don't count. We have indeed had a few participants here try to take that position out of loyalty to a very narrow interpretive philosophy. (I'm not agreeing with that at all, just pointing out that some folks on both sides of the debate hold that viewpoint.)
 
#14 ·
Of course you are correct Hopyard, the Supremes current and many citizens as same do actively view restriction (infringement) as being necessary, applicable and even to a large minority would like to see _all_ arms to be restricted in whole.

That much is and has been left to interpretation as by courts.
Hence personal ownership of an atomic arm is highly restricted, for example.

But as to firearms in specific per the OPs question it is not likely that they will ever become obsolete as a functional choice. as akin to clubs, arrows, spears, knives and swords.

As to the future it is now with electronic, chemical, visual and auditory weapons currently in play. Restricted as infringed in various areas of the country.

- Janq
 
#15 ·
re: Jang

As to the future it is now with electronic, chemical, visual and auditory weapons currently in play. Restricted as infringed in various areas of the country.

- Janq
Sadly, that word "restricted" and that word "infringed" in your second sentence is the long term future as those electronic, chemical, visual and auditory weapons come into play.
 
#19 ·
The right to carry a muzzle loaded flint lock

This thread brings to mind a letter to the editor I wrote some time back:

Mr xyz suggest that the Second Amendment should only apply to the guns in use at the time the Bill of Rights was adopted – e.g., muzzle loaded flint locks.

Let's look at the state of the weapons and conditions to which the framers were referring.

The citizens were armed with weapons as good as, and in many cases better than, those used by many of the standing armies of the world.

In fact, even state-of-the-art artillery pieces were privately own and/or owned by private organizations, such my gun club. Nearly all privately owned boats of any size carried some armament.

Moreover, these weapons required no registration, nor a license to own, nor permission to carry, etc. There were no background check. There were no government limits.

Whatever anyone afford to buy, at home or abroad, they could keep and bear.

If Mr xyz's logic requires only the “technology of the time” was approved by the Bill of Rights is right, under the First Amendment’s “freedom of the press” the Roanoke Times can not use high-speed presses, but rather must hand printing one-page-at-a-time, and under “freedom of speech” the politicians’’ can’t use amplification systems and radio/TV broadcast but must travel from town to town by horse and standing on a stump talking loudly, etc.

On the other hand, if we want to look at what was approved as a reflection of what was currently available, let's return the unregulated right to keep and bear arms.

:danceban:
 
#21 ·
a new 'laser' gun ?
 
#22 ·
Firearms made swords and bows obsolete.
The more I think about this, it's clear: the only thing anyone in elected power till tolerate is a permitted item. Swords don't get permits issued for them. Firearms do, but not everywhere to anyone.

Unless things change, it's entirely possible this core problem will still exist. So long as it does, it's highly likely that the only permitted arms will be those specifically allowed under a license or permit issued by the State.

In practice, no judge applies the 2A to the states. So, realistically, changes in the 2A (to become something else, or to be erased) doesn't change much.

Or do you think firearms are like electricity, communications and transportation that can only get better and never be obsolete?
I think each of these things (firearms, electricity, communications methods, transportation methods) are only temporarily and currently the best methods available. In time, they'll not be, at least not in their current forms.

Whether the 2A will roll with the punches and cover other forms of arms equally well remains to be seen. In practice, I don't think the 2A is doing much right now anyway. It's roundly ignored as a foundation principle, by those holding the reins of power. It's limited by judges to apply only to the federal governing putzes' wielding of threats against you for angering them, and even then not evenly or consistently.

IMO, unless the 2A becomes 2Aª, a core foundation principle that applies to everyone, everywhere, at all times, at the federal level and state level, and is worded differently and far more stiffly (with teeth), to read "You screw with the absolute right of the People to defend themselves against crime and criminals, you die!," then I don't see much changing from the current situation.
 
#23 ·
Some sort of focused energy weapon, like a phaser. However, regular firearms wills till be around; firearms aren't vulnerable to EMP type events, whereas something like a phaser would stop working in such circumstances. It's also a good reason to not come to depend on electronic sights too much on your weapons.
 
#35 ·
When it comes to weapons most anti's use the argument that present day weapons were never envisioned by the founders and therefore not what was intended when they wrote it.
When it comes to the freedom of speech they look at any advancement as an extension of what the founders meant.

Michael
 
#25 ·
As pointed out, Swords and bows are not obsolete, just not used as much, I know some folks that are more dangerous with these weapons in hand then guns for they are silent.

I do envision the day when lasers or simular will take the place overall of bullets, it's aways off though
 
#28 ·
I think if you would have said 50 years ago, in the 2000s guns would be made of plastic, most would have chuckled.

So, Now I'm sure in some secret DOD lab, scientist are reading treads like this and chuckling.
 
#29 ·
Firearms will become obsolete like food, water, and toilet paper.
 
#31 ·
Retsup99, I believe that is a replica of an obsidian knife similar to ones used by the Native Americans in the South West.

I can actually make some tools out of chert, flint or obsidian( a natual volcanic glass). The process is called flintknapping. It involves taking bone or antler tools and striking off pieces of the stone until the desired shape is reached, then further refining the tool with a sharpend antler with what is known as pressure flaking. Try looking up a man named D.C. Waldorph and watching his video. He is a master flintknapper.

Tools like this are very sharp and effective, despite being old or "obsolete".
 
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