Carry on plane. - Page 3

Carry on plane.

This is a discussion on Carry on plane. within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Extremely low chance that anyone has a gun or knife to use as a weapon on a flight as everyone, including the potential BGs, are ...

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Thread: Carry on plane.

  1. #31
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Extremely low chance that anyone has a gun or knife to use as a weapon on a flight as everyone, including the potential BGs, are screened. Threats to kill a flight attendant with a weapon at hand to gain control of an airliner won't work anymore.

    Airliner is a great target to commandeer. It would be worth it for a potential terrorist/hijacker to live a good clean life in order to obtain a concealed gun permit if it allowed carry on his target airliner. These people are not common criminals and are smart enough to get by our normal background checks.

    Federal marshals are on board some subset of airliners. If more than one they know each other and can coordinate. A GG with a gun trying to stop a BG is indistinguishable from just another BG to the marshal and will be treated as such. Marshal tactics must assume multiple people in a planned attack. They train for this. What is an amateur going to do but just make things worse. It is like getting in the middle of a war.

    Bottom line. The feds and airliners have a positive plan to protect me when flying. My carrying a gun cannot in anyway improve my safety and might get me killed by the pros.


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    Seems to me that the arguments here perfectly mirror the general pro/anti gun discussion. There are some on here who think they should be able to carry on airplanes and accept what they assess to be modest risks associated with it. Others believe that the government will keep them safe on airplanes, and don't believe that the risks are modest.

    Guess what? That's how it is in the whole world. If you use your gun on the street, there are decent odds that a police officer will shoot you, thinking you're the bad guy. Likewise, there are plenty of "secure" facilities that are quite dangerous. If governments can't protect people in prisons, I'm pretty sure they can't protect people in airplanes.

    Why would the average guy be a bigger risk on an airplane than elsewhere? Here in Oregon you can concealed carry in a bar, drunk as a skunk. I've done it, and tons of other people do every Friday and Saturday night. Nobody ever gets shot by these guys. If it was going to happen, that's where you'd see it. When shootings do happen, it's basically never CCWs - just unlicensed thugs.

    Again: if you don't think you need to carry a gun on a plane, don't do it. I'm willing to take my chances. If I shoot a terrorist on a plane and a federal marshal shoots me, so be it. I'm willing to take that risk. It's the exact same risk that I'd take if I drew down on a terrorist in a bus, shopping mall, or wherever else I normally carry. I'm just asking for the freedom to take that type of risk myself.

    Folks running New York City also think that the average Joes can't be trusted with guns. That's where this leads.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    There is no Constitutional right to live either.
    Um, yes there is.

  4. #34
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    No there aint. When your number is up, all that fancy print wont matter one bit.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  5. #35
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnowell View Post
    Again: if you don't think you need to carry a gun on a plane, don't do it. I'm willing to take my chances. If I shoot a terrorist on a plane and a federal marshal shoots me, so be it. I'm willing to take that risk. It's the exact same risk that I'd take if I drew down on a terrorist in a bus, shopping mall, or wherever else I normally carry. I'm just asking for the freedom to take that type of risk myself.
    In this case the average Joe can't be trusted to have the training to do the correct thing in this particular combat situation. You don't know the players. You are just as likely to shoot the federal marshal (or some other CCW person trying to intervene) as the terrorist when you see a weapon situation developing. I do not want to see amateurs getting involved in situations where two pros are fighting it out. I do not want you on that plane carrying a gun as you WILL make the situation worse, not better.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    In this case the average Joe can't be trusted to have the training to do the correct thing in this particular combat situation. You don't know the players. You are just as likely to shoot the federal marshal (or some other CCW person trying to intervene) as the terrorist when you see a weapon situation developing. I do not want to see amateurs getting involved in situations where two pros are fighting it out. I do not want you on that plane carrying a gun as you WILL make the situation worse, not better.
    This is the same line anti-gun types use in regards to police. The funny thing is, just like all the other fantasy fears, this one doesn't come up very often. There are people concealed carrying almost everywhere, and everyday somebody out there has to use his gun. Yet, you never read about this problem coming up.

    I ask: why are airplanes special? This problem could just as well happen in a 7/11.
    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    In this case the average Joe can't be trusted to have the training to do the correct thing in this particular combat situation. You don't know the players. You are just as likely to shoot the federal marshal (or some other CCW person trying to intervene) as the terrorist when you see a weapon situation developing.
    Guess what? The "average Joe" doesn't have training for ANY combat situation. Yet, concealed carriers virtually never make tragic mistakes. Are you suggesting that only the experts should have access to guns?

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    No there aint. When your number is up, all that fancy print wont matter one bit.
    From the 5th amendment:

    "Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified 12/15/1791.

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    Even if the FAA allowed carry, the airplane is private property. It would be no different than being asked to leave private property if the owner does not want you on his property armed. The airlines have that right even if the Feds allowed it.

    An airline doesn't want the legal exposure from a bad or a good shooting. They would be liable if they allowed you to carry on THEIR AIRPLANE

    Your right to carry does not outweigh their right to prohibit it.

  9. #39
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnowell View Post
    I ask: why are airplanes special? This problem could just as well happen in a 7/11.

    Guess what? The "average Joe" doesn't have training for ANY combat situation. Yet, concealed carriers virtually never make tragic mistakes. Are you suggesting that only the experts should have access to guns?
    The difference is that your local 7/11 doesn't have strong affirmative means of ensuring that every person who enters has no weapons on them upon entering. The airliners do. That difference is significant. Commercial transport airlines have taken upon themselves the task of ensuring your safety. There is absolutely nothing you can do that will improve your safety in that particular environment. Allowing CCW in this particular environment WILL make it less safe. This does not happen on the normal city street where the official stance is that you are on your own for defending yourself. In the airline environment the official stance is we will protect you and they do back it up with effective means. Yeah, nothing is perfect, but this situation is as good a situation as you can get for effective official protection and CCW will not make it better in any way.

    In this particular situation, and only in this case, with a systematic plan of handling a combat event, yes, only the people trained to handle this should have access to guns. Additional wildcards of untrained amateurs can and will only make things worse for everybody.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array hudsonvalley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    IDK, one missed round in SD on a plane could depressurize.
    Goldfinger was a good movie but I don't know how much damage a 1/2 hole through the hull could do....anyone?
    Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.
    ---Ronald Reagan

  11. #41
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    In this particular situation, and only in this case, with a systematic plan of handling a combat event, yes, only the people trained to handle this should have access to guns. Additional wildcards of untrained amateurs can and will only make things worse for everybody.
    Unfortunatley a majority of flights in the U.S. have no such luxury as Air Marshals.

    Most flights have no protection whatsoever.

    I'd rather have a few armed passengers carry than the alternative...which would be curling up in the fetal position or trying to hide underneath the seat wishing I had a gun in the event that someone got stupid.

    Your statements would have merit if every single flight had a few Air Marshals on them, but we dont have that luxury do we? Instead, you advocate that we be defenseless.

    We see how well that works dont we? Military bases,schools, churches, any where where the citizen is not allowed to be armed because "they arent trained".

    Its the same old tired Bravo Sierra, in the meantime people get shot by thugs that are guaranteed a high body count.

    Will we ever learn?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    Bottom line. The feds and airliners have a positive plan to protect me when flying. My carrying a gun cannot in anyway improve my safety and might get me killed by the pros.
    FWIW, the overwhelming majority of airliners fly without FFDOs or Air Marshals. The "pros" probably won't be there.

    The positive plan in place is for me to keep the cockpit door locked and let you fend for yourself in the back.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    Even if the FAA allowed carry, the airplane is private property. It would be no different than being asked to leave private property if the owner does not want you on his property armed. The airlines have that right even if the Feds allowed it.

    An airline doesn't want the legal exposure from a bad or a good shooting. They would be liable if they allowed you to carry on THEIR AIRPLANE

    Your right to carry does not outweigh their right to prohibit it.
    Although I think I should be able to carry on an airplane, this is probably true...so it doesn't matter what I think.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    Even if the FAA allowed carry, the airplane is private property.
    You're probably right, and I don't have a problem with private property rights. However, airlines often don't own the jets outright, get huge federal subsidies and carry US Mail. I wonder if that would affect their ability to claim the jets as "private property."

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    Even if the FAA allowed carry, the airplane is private property. It would be no different than being asked to leave private property if the owner does not want you on his property armed. The airlines have that right even if the Feds allowed it.

    An airline doesn't want the legal exposure from a bad or a good shooting. They would be liable if they allowed you to carry on THEIR AIRPLANE

    Your right to carry does not outweigh their right to prohibit it.
    +1 No diffrent if I requested no carry in MY vehicle. My sandbox my rules. Don't like it tough nugies, go start your own airline company. I would like to beleive that if a airline did allow it I would liketo see a FAMS class given to CCW'rs.

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