Carry on plane.

This is a discussion on Carry on plane. within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by HITCH KING Don't like it tough nugies, go start your own airline company. I can't start an airline that allows the carry ...

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Thread: Carry on plane.

  1. #46
    Member Array Holger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HITCH KING View Post
    Don't like it tough nugies, go start your own airline company.
    I can't start an airline that allows the carry of firearms on board.

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  3. #47
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I'd rather have a few armed passengers carry than the alternative...which would be curling up in the fetal position or trying to hide underneath the seat wishing I had a gun in the event that someone got stupid.
    How will people get shot if nobody has a gun? There are affirmative measures in place to ensure that is the situation. We are back to the basic situation of unarmed force on force. The BGs are outnumbered. As shown in the 4th airliner on 9/11 that was sufficient to stop a hijacking after people learned the former normal rules of acquiescence no longer would work.

    Allowing CCW on flights will give a vast opening for a terrorist to obtain one. The normal petty criminal check for CCW won't catch this. I'd much rather have muscle on muscle fights then gun on gun fights particularly when lack of guns is guaranteed to all combatants.

  4. #48
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    Sounds good in theory.

    People die when theory dosent work.

    Nothing is fool proof. Set up a plan and it's only a matter of time until someone figures out a way around it.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  5. #49
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Nothing is fool proof. Set up a plan and it's only a matter of time until someone figures out a way around it.
    Nothing is perfect, all we can do is play the odds.

    There already are opening, trusted pilots and federal marshals could go rogue much as a trusted army major did in a military installation. Carrying pilots and marshals are much more heavily vetted than the average legal CCW carrier. On balance prohibiting CCW in this situation is safest strategy.

  6. #50
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    I wonder how many Muslim Air Marshals we've got that are "loyal" to something else, much like our Major was?
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  7. #51
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    The air marshall program is stretched very thin. Most flights do not have any marshalls on board. Although they have tried to change it, marshalls are still, for the most part, boarded before anyone else, seated in a certain few tactically advantageous seats, and some are still always clean shaven and have clean haircuts. They are visible targets to anyone who wishes to do a terrorist act on a plane (and such acts are planned down to minute details - they would pick up on such things).

    Most airlines actually do not participate in the FFDO program. So armed pilots are fairly rare as well.

    Any 9/11 type terrorist who still wants to do the same thing again is free to do so, actually, even now. The only thing possibly stopping them are a few brave passengers who would be willing to risk grave injury to themselves to stop them in hand-to-hand combat. It only takes a few hostages to get that cockpit door opened. And if that fails, well, the AF will likely have to destroy a passenger jet full of people. The terrorists still get a lot of innocent people killed - they win no matter what.


  8. #52
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    The above cartoon reminded me of a news story tonight.
    Major Hasan, if you remember, was e-mailing a radical imam he knew from DC.
    The FBI was tracking his e-mails but not sharing that information with the Army.
    So this imam gives an interview with Al Jazera TV and they ask him when Hasan first indicated he was contemplating his terrorist act. The imam said it was Hasan's FIRST e-mail, and he asked if muslim religion would allow the killing of American soldiers. We know what that answer was.
    The first e-mail? So what did the FBI know? Isn't the DHS supposed to coordinate information?
    You see the problem?

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holger View Post
    I can't start an airline that allows the carry of firearms on board.
    Perhaps not but if CCW is that important POV sounds like your best means of CCW while on travel. POV=PRIVATELY owned vehicle.

    As I stated, a commercial airplane is private property. The owner sets the rules along with the FEDS, who are charged with protecting the general public, not a vocal minority like us who wants to be armed.

    I'm with you on this, but it's just the way it is. I put up with it because the reality is what it is. I'd like to get my stupid state of MD to allow me to carry before I'd complain about lack of weapons on planes.

    My .02

  10. #54
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holger View Post
    You're probably right, and I don't have a problem with private property rights. However, airlines often don't own the jets outright, get huge federal subsidies and carry US Mail. I wonder if that would affect their ability to claim the jets as "private property."

    Even if a bank held a note on an airplane, their best interests would be served by NOT allowing carry IMO. The US Govt has no vested interest in armed passengers, no matter what we think.

  11. #55
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnowell View Post
    Seems to me that the arguments here perfectly mirror the general pro/anti gun discussion. There are some on here who think they should be able to carry on airplanes and accept what they assess to be modest risks associated with it. Others believe that the government will keep them safe on airplanes, and don't believe that the risks are modest.

    Guess what? That's how it is in the whole world. If you use your gun on the street, there are decent odds that a police officer will shoot you, thinking you're the bad guy. Likewise, there are plenty of "secure" facilities that are quite dangerous. If governments can't protect people in prisons, I'm pretty sure they can't protect people in airplanes.

    Why would the average guy be a bigger risk on an airplane than elsewhere? Here in Oregon you can concealed carry in a bar, drunk as a skunk. I've done it, and tons of other people do every Friday and Saturday night. Nobody ever gets shot by these guys. If it was going to happen, that's where you'd see it. When shootings do happen, it's basically never CCWs - just unlicensed thugs.

    Again: if you don't think you need to carry a gun on a plane, don't do it. I'm willing to take my chances. If I shoot a terrorist on a plane and a federal marshal shoots me, so be it. I'm willing to take that risk. It's the exact same risk that I'd take if I drew down on a terrorist in a bus, shopping mall, or wherever else I normally carry. I'm just asking for the freedom to take that type of risk myself.

    Folks running New York City also think that the average Joes can't be trusted with guns. That's where this leads.
    A 7-11 on the ground is not the same as an airplane with 250 people on it flying at 35,000 feet. your right to carry does not outweigh their right to not want it. Go by car if you feel that strongly.

    If all the passengers took a vote on your "right" and you lost, would you feel better?

  12. #56
    Member Array rstrainii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Mindset. Its all about Mindset.

    Why do terrorists and thugs bent on making a statement pick aircraft, schools, churches or even courthouses to do the deed?

    Because all of them are target rich environments where they stand an excellent chance of killing a bunch of people before the LAW finally does get there to whack their sorry tails.

    It's all about Mindset. It's obvious that many here dont have it.
    I agree with part of this statement but not all of it. Thugs and schools etc yes, terrorist and airplanes not all the time. 9/11 planes were chosen because of the fuel capacity making them one heck of an explosive. Those planes could have had 2 people on them and they would have taken them to accomplish the mission. However a plane with 300+ on it makes a big statment.

    As far as carry on a commercial flight. I have to agree that you are in a long tube, confined space and some of the CCW friends and folks that I have seen at the range, I would not want shooting in that close of quarters. Now if there were a Federal Class for CCW that taught the same as Federal agents are taught then I would be OK with it.

    Freindly Fire isn't and I don't want to be hit by a bad shot. On the ground I take that chance bit have a great choice of cover options and I never use public transportation other than flying. Just my 2 cents.

  13. #57
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul34 View Post
    The air marshall program is stretched very thin. Most flights do not have any marshalls on board. Although they have tried to change it, marshalls are still, for the most part, boarded before anyone else, seated in a certain few tactically advantageous seats, and some are still always clean shaven and have clean haircuts. They are visible targets to anyone who wishes to do a terrorist act on a plane (and such acts are planned down to minute details - they would pick up on such things).
    Air Marshals actually board when they want. Their ticket is purchased in the same way as everyone else.

    I have mixed feelings about the deal. Somebody mentioned before the possibility of a radical Air Marshal. It could also be an FBI Agent, ICE Agent, Border Patrol Agent, Deputy Marshal, CBP Officer, or virtually any other federal agent. There are way too many variables for me to make up my mind over allowing the general public to carry on commercial aircraft. However, I do lean towards it.
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

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  14. #58
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    Some states issue CCW permits with absolutely NO prior training or experience required. I don't want to fly with those people. How would you make sure that a CCW holder on a plane had a clue what to do or even their proficiency?

    Sorry, I'd rather take my chances hoping everyone is unarmed than to ride with an untrained or inexperienced shooter that could cause a possible catstrophe. Sometimes the greater good has to prevail, no matter how we feel personally.

  15. #59
    Member Array socal2310's Avatar
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    If airlines were actually private entities, I would have no problem with their firearms rules. In actuality, they are quasi public entities by virtue of their relationship to the federal government through regulation and past bailouts.

    I have a problem with the fact that ordinary citizens can't carry on Amtrak either.

    Safety issues on planes are seriously overblown, the vast majority of accidents are due to pilot error or poor maintenance and would remain the primary cause of dangerous incidents even if everyone were packing.

    Ryan
    Those who will not govern their own behavior are slaves waiting for a master; one will surely find them.

  16. #60
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by socal2310 View Post
    If airlines were actually private entities, I would have no problem with their firearms rules. In actuality, they are quasi public entities by virtue of their relationship to the federal government through regulation and past bailouts.

    I have a problem with the fact that ordinary citizens can't carry on Amtrak either.

    Safety issues on planes are seriously overblown, the vast majority of accidents are due to pilot error or poor maintenance and would remain the primary cause of dangerous incidents even if everyone were packing.

    Ryan
    Airlines may be quasi public entities, but they have not forfeited their property rights AFAIK.

    I do not want possibly untrained and inexperienced gun carrier getting in a gun fight at 35000 feet in close quarters or on a train either. Too many uncontrollable variables. As I said, the folks who don't want carry probably outnumber those that do and therefore I would think they have just as much right to not want it as we perceive we should. If we had majority rule, I'd bet we wouldn't prevail. I'm ok with that. I don't think the 2A is an iron clad right in every situation. IMO this is one of those.

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