Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment - Page 2

Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment

This is a discussion on Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; That pretty much covers everything. Great article....

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Thread: Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment

  1. #16
    Member Array Thijones's Avatar
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    That pretty much covers everything. Great article.


  2. #17
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcat View Post
    The votes that win come from people like me, that middle 50% that is neither one nor the other.

    Our country is not really split down the middle, it is actually split in thirds. 25% are hard core right-wing, 25% are hard core left-wing, and 50% are somewhere in the middle third. That balance is what allows both sides to win their share of arguments.
    Yep. Aside from the pro gun argument being the rational one, I try to tell antis that if Democrats/liberals/etc. would get a clue on the issue, it would gain them a substantial number of votes. Being pro gun does not lose you votes anywhere but a few areas which will vote Democrat or liberal no matter what. On the other hand, being anti-gun most definitely hurts you in many areas that would otherwise be winnable.

    Seriously, think of the next election. If Obama publicly said that after much consultation with say, tester or Baucus, or the governor of Montana, he now believes that things like the AWB are ineffective and that he would not sign them if they were sent to his desk, what states would he lose? None. But he would stand a very good chance to pick up some close states or at least make them competitive, which itself is valuable in a presidential race (resource management is huge, if you can force a fight in a state that should have been "safe" for your opponent, that's a victory).

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    Yep. Aside from the pro gun argument being the rational one, I try to tell antis that if Democrats/liberals/etc. would get a clue on the issue, it would gain them a substantial number of votes. Being pro gun does not lose you votes anywhere but a few areas which will vote Democrat or liberal no matter what. On the other hand, being anti-gun most definitely hurts you in many areas that would otherwise be winnable.

    Seriously, think of the next election. If Obama publicly said that after much consultation with say, tester or Baucus, or the governor of Montana, he now believes that things like the AWB are ineffective and that he would not sign them if they were sent to his desk, what states would he lose? None. But he would stand a very good chance to pick up some close states or at least make them competitive, which itself is valuable in a presidential race (resource management is huge, if you can force a fight in a state that should have been "safe" for your opponent, that's a victory).

    His agendas are too (dyed in the wool) to change now. From the second amendment to the way the government operates without authority.
    All the people who he has set up in high offices that are anti 2a would all have to be called off their (mission), so to speak. You can't change the spots on a leopard.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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  4. #19
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    His agendas are too (dyed in the wool) to change now. From the second amendment to the way the government operates without authority.
    All the people who he has set up in high offices that are anti 2a would all have to be called off their (mission), so to speak. You can't change the spots on a leopard.
    I'm aware of all of that. It was a hypothetical, not a prediction.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Mr. Angry Mouse is obviously not a liberal.

    Most of them cant think that well.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman:
    "No true Scotsman is a logical fallacy where the meaning of a term is ad hoc redefined to make a desired assertion about it true. It is a type of self-sealing argument."

    Example given:
    "Teacher: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
    Student: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
    Teacher: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis."

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    The Second Amendment is not the right to bear arms, it is the right of revolution.
    ... and there's nothing more "liberal" than that.

    One thing the People should realize is the flipside of that coin: Failure of the 2A is elimination of the ability of revolution against tyranny.

    Folks who crow for its evisceration should recognize that, once they wipe the foam off. It's one of those two-edged sword type deals.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    I'm aware of all of that. It was a hypothetical, not a prediction.
    And I was aware of your awareness, I was just giving my opinion of why his eyes will never see the light.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

    NRA Member

  8. #23
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    And I was aware of your awareness, I was just giving my opinion of why his eyes will never see the light.
    And now I'm aware that you were aware that I was aware. Look at all the awareness going on here.

    I agree with you of course. There is the tiniest chance he could change his mind, but not because of a sincere change of opinion based on the facts. It is his very weakness as a president that could do it: he's a coward who will knuckle under for political purposes. We've already seen it in terms of guns -- he wasn't willing to torch the credit card reform bill to take out the guns in national parks.
    Last edited by Bumper; December 21st, 2009 at 08:41 PM. Reason: A little too far over the political edge...

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Refreshing

    It is refreshing to hear a "Liberal" look at issues that "Liberals" dissagree with from a larger, rational perspective, and not just an emotional fear or unthinking reaction.

    The Liberals are actually getting conservatives to be liberal though... liberal in our purchases of new guns and lots of ammo
    Walk softly ...

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    A most excellent argument!

    It should be updated for the post Heller view...
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

  11. #26
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    I also want to encourage everyone to read the comments. It backs up what I've been saying since I joined this board, that there are untold numbers of liberals/progressives/Democrats who do see this issue rationally.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    I also want to encourage everyone to read the comments. It backs up what I've been saying since I joined this board, that there are untold numbers of liberals/progressives/Democrats who do see this issue rationally.
    While there may be plenty of liberals that get it, it's the ones in key offices right now that are hurting the 2a. I know some myself that hunt and own guns for protection and are not closed minded. Unfortunately they have no interest in running for those key political offices. They too seem to get disgusted with some of their party gun grab.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

    NRA Member

  13. #28
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    While there may be plenty of liberals that get it, it's the ones in key offices right now that are hurting the 2a. I know some myself that hunt and own guns for protection and are not closed minded. Unfortunately they have no interest in running for those key political offices. They too seem to get disgusted with some of their party gun grab.
    Of course, I'm just trying to get people to understand that it's anti gun people that should be opposed, rather than the reflexive liberal bashing that goes on here and in most gun forums. Calmly explain or correct someone and you have a chance to change minds (I changed mine!). Tell them they are idiots or shout them down and they will dig in further.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    ... it's anti gun people that should be opposed, rather than the reflexive liberal bashing that goes on here and in most gun forums.
    Great reminder, Torgo! It doesn't help, you're right.

    I, myself, tend to use the "elected autocrats" jab into the chests of folks holding temporary seats of power. That, too, is a stereotype and falsely applies to most of the folks having such responsibility.

    Your good point is well taken. Jabbing fingers in chests does far less good than simply pointing out the simple reality and arguments. Good reminder.

    Short parables, simple rhetorical questions, pointing out clear examples of failure of our current methods ... all of these can be effective, and they avoid the finger jabbing.

    For example ...

    Consider Wolves and Sheep. For sheep, bleating about their plight doesn't help. Wolves at the door don't listen to pleas by sheep, who are far better off engaging in one or more worthwhile defensive activities, such as: resisting the attack until the shepherd can arrive; or, quickly exiting the space. Bleating about the plight merely emboldens the wolves.

    It doesn't finger point. It doesn't label with distasteful stereotypes. It's fairly unlikely to raise anyone's hackles. It's true at the core and is the central problem that targeted people face.

    Calmly explain or correct someone and you have a chance to change minds (I changed mine!). Tell them they are idiots or shout them down and they will dig in further.
    Good reminder, to all.

    My personal favorite is a simple rhetorical question that I've had in my signature line for a while, now:

    How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?

    Any person is going to have a difficult time reading that question and coming away thinking that victim disarmament is a good thing. After a hundred engagements like this, it's entirely likely that a died-in-the-wool control meister will instead come to the realization that the old methods simply don't work well. No finger pointing required.

    Another good one, also a rhetorical type "question" to be thought over:

    Pavlov was right. The dogs responded to the bell because they knew a treat was coming. Likewise, criminals aren't stupid. They realize that pretty little "Gun Free Zone" signs mean that it's 99.9% likely that only disarmed people exist in this space, that the people are almost certain to be unable to defend themselves. That's bad juju, no matter what color stripes you wear on your sleeve.


    Good reminder, Torgo. Thanks.


    The only person who has a responsibility to protect you is you. And so, you have two choices in this life: to survive until the cavalry arrives; or, not. Pick one.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #30
    Member Array Backroad's Avatar
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    I'm printin' this sucker and mailing it to Nobama and Eric Holder (among others)!

    al
    "gettin' there is half the fun."

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