Antis that don't fit the mold?

This is a discussion on Antis that don't fit the mold? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; FirearmsCoalition.org ^ | 15 January, 2010 | Jeff Knox Posted on January 16, 2010 9:14:20 AM EST (Manassas, VA, January 14, 2010) I recently wrote ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18

Thread: Antis that don't fit the mold?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,776

    Exclamation Antis that don't fit the mold?

    FirearmsCoalition.org ^ | 15 January, 2010 | Jeff Knox
    Posted on January 16, 2010 9:14:20 AM EST

    (Manassas, VA, January 14, 2010) I recently wrote about the need for preaching to the choir – too many of our own friends, family members, and fellow shooters are woefully uninformed about the fight for liberty. A chance conversation in a hardware store this week really brought home just how much work there is to do beyond the choir room doors. At the hardware store I got into a conversation with a fellow shopper. As conversations with me tend to do, it wasn’t long before we were talking about guns and gun laws. The fellow’s wife had joined the conversation by this time and while his reaction was troubling, her reaction was down right scary.

    This was a nice couple in their 50’s, fairly conservative, into classic cars, and in the market for a .38 for home protection. They were not loony-tune lefties by any means. They also mentioned a good friend who owns many guns and reloads. The conversation rolled along smoothly until the topic of “Uzi’s and machineguns” came up. As you can imagine, it wasn’t me talking about “Uzi’s and machineguns.”

    I explained that there is little difference between an Uzi and any 9mm handgun or carbine and that legal machineguns are virtually never used in crime. That so called “assault weapons” are also rarely used In crime and that millions and millions of them are owned and used every day without hurting anyone. That the Second Amendment isn’t about duck or deer hunting, it is about being able to defend yourself, your family, your community, your state, and your country.

    That is when the woman said something really chilling. She said that those crazy people who want all of those military weapons and think they have a right to that kind of capability just infuriate her and scare her to death and even though she doesn’t think people should have machineguns, those crazy people make her wish she had a machinegun to just shoot them all.

    What on earth do you do with something like that?

    I explained that those “crazy people” weren’t radical nut-jobs hoping for an opportunity to shoot a terrorist. They are ordinary people – her neighbors – who believe they have a right and an obligation to be prepared to defend our way of life. I told her that those guys aren’t “those guys,” they are me. I tried to get her to understand that these gun owners are asking nothing more than to be left alone, and that trying to disarm them for no reason would result in tragedy.

    Nothing I said could penetrate her resolve or her husband’s support for her position. She was absolutely convinced that no one should “be allowed” to own more than a couple of guns or more than a little ammunition and that anyone who refused to conform to such restrictions deserved whatever they got in the way of government agents forcing compliance.

    The whole encounter shocked me. I have had arguments with anti-gun zealots over the years and their ability to ignore facts and embrace irrational fear has always amazed me, but these folks didn’t fit the mold. These folks were asking my advice about gun stores and training, but they were ready to employ the Marines to forcefully disarm – or kill – people like me.

    I’ve talked with conservatives who just didn’t get the whole “gun thing” and I’ve talked to gun owners who didn’t see why anyone should have an “assault weapon” or a .50 BMG or a little-bitty handgun, and I’ve almost always been stunned by their myopia. But this is the first time I have ever met a reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent person who was ready to declare war on her countrymen simply because they wanted to have the means to effectively defend themselves from just such an assault.

    I have resolved that I am going to find a way to reach this woman and others like her. I am going to formulate arguments that will breach her hoplophobia and help her understand my position – and her own. At this point I’m not sure what those arguments will be, but I do know that it won’t be easy.

    I’m afraid that there are a lot more folks like this couple out there. Folks who are afraid of me because I believe in the right to arms. I don’t know yet how I’m going to allay those fears, if I can allay them, but I do know that we need answers for these folks and we have a whole lot of work to do.

    Permission to reprint or post this article in its entirety is hereby granted provided this credit is included. Text is available at The Firearms Coalition. To receive The Firearms Coalition’s bi-monthly newsletter, The Knox Hard Corps Report, write to PO Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108. ©Copyright 2010 Neal Knox Associates – The most trusted name in the rights movement.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Gulf Coast of Florida
    Posts
    9,331
    Tough battle. You could ask her what her response would be if someone else said the same thing about "those crazy people who want handguns" like their 38. Who gets to decide what is reasonable or not? Crazy people shouldn't have any type of guns. In the hands of responsible law abiding citizens, the weapons she is discussing are no more of a concern than her having her 38.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    3,194
    I know those people, not the ones you spoke to but ones just like them.
    From what experience I've had with them, you might just as well have walked over to the tool section and started talking to the hammers.

    There are people who refuse to see beyond their own beliefs no matter what approach you use. It's ingrained in them through years of being sensitized by media, parents, educational systems, political views, you name it.

    It's hard to use rational to quell an irrational fear.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

    NRA Member

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,776

    Exclamation

    Here is a tougher nut to crack: The son of a very old friend of mine is a West point grad and serving Infantry Officer. This guy has done two tours of Afghanistan and in FOUR days deploys to Iraq. He's an NRA Life member and not only does he have his ccw permit, he was XO of the German American Joint Services Pistol Team. He is heavily decorated in combat. This kid hasn't just seen the elephant, he's fought the whole herd. While he's all for ccw for handguns and the like, he feels that NOBODY should have access to class III weapons outside of the military. He grudgingly admits I have the needed skills, but he doesn't want just any civilian to own a SAW.

    Know what's more disturbing about this young man? He's a political liberal. He voted for and still enthusiastically supports Obama. He's against the "Health Care" bill but refuses to judge the man based on his handling of this single issue. Try as I might, I can't change his mind and neither can his dad.
    Last edited by ExSoldier; January 17th, 2010 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Delete the religion stuff as not pertinent
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    7,624
    the nomenclature got stuck when they titled them "assault rifles" (AR's) , that was the first mistake of the industry. Then the early 90's mentality they were something only owned by 'gun nuts', with no understanding by the general public.

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    25,992
    She said that those crazy people who want all of those military weapons and think they have a right to that kind of capability just infuriate her and scare her to death and even though she doesn’t think people should have machineguns, those crazy people make her wish she had a machinegun to just shoot them all.
    She actually said she'd willingly contemplate mass murder in order to silence those who embodied a perceived trait because of their purchases?

    John Q. Public purchases a Remington 700 bolt-action rifle in 8mm Mauser, but he's fine in her mind. He can't possibly have designs on anyone, 'cause he doesn't have an "assault" weapon. But the next week, he purchases a 1940's vintage 8mm Mauser bolt-action rifle that happened to have been used for a couple years in the military ... and according to her logic she would seriously consider murdering that person because of the purchase. Hm.

    Some people aren't worth a dozen words to describe how seriously painful their gullibility is. Likely, she's perfectly intelligent and capable of following a description of a tool and distinguishing it from another, but the mere fact some people mistakenly call something an "assault" weapon, she can't make heads or tails of it. To the point she believes anyone in possession of one deserves to be murdered, to salve her conscience and irrational, insupportable fears.

    God Almighty, there are some weak examples of bipeds on this planet.


    I suppose all we can do is to look on the bright side. If something less than facts helped people misconstrue reality, then a heavy helping of facts (dosed properly) can help them correctly see what's true.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Gulf Coast of Florida
    Posts
    9,331
    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    She said that those crazy people who want all of those military weapons and think they have a right to that kind of capability just infuriate her and scare her to death and even though she doesn’t think people should have machineguns, those crazy people make her wish she had a machinegun to just shoot them all.
    There's your sign...she's the crazy person. You can't fix that. Once she made that statement, I think I would have just said, "And you're calling THEM crazy? Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black." My advice is avoid them.

    This makes no more sense than anti-abortion folks killing people that work for the clinics "because they are murderers and they don't believe in murder." Did they just not commit murder themselves?
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  9. #8
    VIP Member
    Array shooterX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,849
    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    FirearmsCoalition.org ^ | 15 January, 2010 | Jeff Knox
    Posted on January 16, 2010 9:14:20 AM EST

    (Manassas, VA, January 14, 2010) I recently wrote about the need for preaching to the choir – too many of our own friends, family members, and fellow shooters are woefully uninformed about the fight for liberty. A chance conversation in a hardware store this week really brought home just how much work there is to do beyond the choir room doors. At the hardware store I got into a conversation with a fellow shopper. As conversations with me tend to do, it wasn’t long before we were talking about guns and gun laws. The fellow’s wife had joined the conversation by this time and while his reaction was troubling, her reaction was down right scary.

    This was a nice couple in their 50’s, fairly conservative, into classic cars, and in the market for a .38 for home protection. They were not loony-tune lefties by any means. They also mentioned a good friend who owns many guns and reloads. The conversation rolled along smoothly until the topic of “Uzi’s and machineguns” came up. As you can imagine, it wasn’t me talking about “Uzi’s and machineguns.”

    I explained that there is little difference between an Uzi and any 9mm handgun or carbine and that legal machineguns are virtually never used in crime. That so called “assault weapons” are also rarely used In crime and that millions and millions of them are owned and used every day without hurting anyone. That the Second Amendment isn’t about duck or deer hunting, it is about being able to defend yourself, your family, your community, your state, and your country.

    That is when the woman said something really chilling. She said that those crazy people who want all of those military weapons and think they have a right to that kind of capability just infuriate her and scare her to death and even though she doesn’t think people should have machineguns, those crazy people make her wish she had a machinegun to just shoot them all.

    What on earth do you do with something like that?

    I explained that those “crazy people” weren’t radical nut-jobs hoping for an opportunity to shoot a terrorist. They are ordinary people – her neighbors – who believe they have a right and an obligation to be prepared to defend our way of life. I told her that those guys aren’t “those guys,” they are me. I tried to get her to understand that these gun owners are asking nothing more than to be left alone, and that trying to disarm them for no reason would result in tragedy.

    Nothing I said could penetrate her resolve or her husband’s support for her position. She was absolutely convinced that no one should “be allowed” to own more than a couple of guns or more than a little ammunition and that anyone who refused to conform to such restrictions deserved whatever they got in the way of government agents forcing compliance.

    The whole encounter shocked me. I have had arguments with anti-gun zealots over the years and their ability to ignore facts and embrace irrational fear has always amazed me, but these folks didn’t fit the mold. These folks were asking my advice about gun stores and training, but they were ready to employ the Marines to forcefully disarm – or kill – people like me.

    I’ve talked with conservatives who just didn’t get the whole “gun thing” and I’ve talked to gun owners who didn’t see why anyone should have an “assault weapon” or a .50 BMG or a little-bitty handgun, and I’ve almost always been stunned by their myopia. But this is the first time I have ever met a reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent person who was ready to declare war on her countrymen simply because they wanted to have the means to effectively defend themselves from just such an assault.

    I have resolved that I am going to find a way to reach this woman and others like her. I am going to formulate arguments that will breach her hoplophobia and help her understand my position – and her own. At this point I’m not sure what those arguments will be, but I do know that it won’t be easy.

    I’m afraid that there are a lot more folks like this couple out there. Folks who are afraid of me because I believe in the right to arms. I don’t know yet how I’m going to allay those fears, if I can allay them, but I do know that we need answers for these folks and we have a whole lot of work to do.

    Permission to reprint or post this article in its entirety is hereby granted provided this credit is included. Text is available at The Firearms Coalition. To receive The Firearms Coalition’s bi-monthly newsletter, The Knox Hard Corps Report, write to PO Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108. ©Copyright 2010 Neal Knox Associates – The most trusted name in the rights movement.
    Would like to have been a fly on the wall for this conversation. If anyone has the ability to get through to this women, I know its you Ex, having read many of your posts and thus gotten a sense for your ability to argue your point with intelligence, knowledge,and "the facts", I feel confident you'll find a way. Goo dluck.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Here is a tougher nut to crack: The son of a very old friend of mine is a West point grad and serving Infantry Officer. This guy has done two tours of Afghanistan and in FOUR days deploys to Iraq. He's an NRA Life member and not only does he have his ccw permit, he was XO of the German American Joint Services Pistol Team. He is heavily decorated in combat. This kid hasn't just seen the elephant, he's fought the whole herd. While he's all for ccw for handguns and the like, he feels that NOBODY should have access to class III weapons outside of the military. He grudgingly admits I have the needed skills, but he doesn't want just any civilian to own a SAW. Know what's more disturbing about this young man? He's a political liberal. He voted for and still enthusiastically supports Obama. He's against the "Health Care" bill but refuses to judge the man based on his handling of this single issue. Try as I might, I can't change his mind and neither can his dad.

    He's also a "secular humanist" and does not embrace God in nearly any form. His dad is a born again Christian (as I am) and when his dad retired as a teacher, he went up to DC to run a nonprofit group that ministers to members of Congress! The son's rejection of Jesus has both his dad and myself terribly worried. He's not exactly in a safe profession and he's going in harms way yet again in a few days.
    This is a hard one, and disturbing. I know several people who would agree with his postion about class 3 weapons, and one or two about all firearms.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,776

    Lightbulb Quote of the year.... so far

    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    I know those people, not the ones you spoke to but ones just like them. From what experience I've had with them, you might just as well have walked over to the tool section and started talking to the hammers.
    You might owe me a new keyboard. My morning protein shake came out my nose and sprayed the area I laughed so hard!

    Walk over to the tool section and start talking to the HAMMERS. ROFLMAO!

    BTW, I didn't talk to her. The author of this article did. I highlighted his name at the start of the piece.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    3,194
    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    You might owe me a new keyboard. My morning protein shake came out my nose and sprayed the area I laughed so hard!

    Walk over to the tool section and start talking to the HAMMERS. ROFLMAO!

    BTW, I didn't talk to her. The author of this article did. I highlighted his name at the start of the piece.
    Watch for the UPS truck, I just sent you a new keyboard.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

    NRA Member

  12. #11
    VIP Member
    Array WHEC724's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    6,446
    I wonder if part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the difference between 'semi auto' and 'auto'.

    My wife being one of them. In spite of how many times that I've explained the difference, she still thinks all 'black rifles' are full-auto 'machine guns'.

    Although, if the truth be told, I'd prefer to be able to own 'full auto' (without special licensing) as well.
    __________________________________
    'Clinging to my guns and religion

  13. #12
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,837
    reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent person
    The reason that you are dissapointed and shocked is because while you though that these were reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent person their statements prove that they are not.

    At this point, they are still educated idiots and they are the most dangerous of all.

    Reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent people really are in the minority in this country and the current Administration and buffoons that support are proof of it.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The Show Me State
    Posts
    2,641
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    The reason that you are dissapointed and shocked is because while you though that these were reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent person their statements prove that they are not.

    At this point, they are still educated idiots and they are the most dangerous of all.

    Reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent people really are in the minority in this country and the current Administration and buffoons that support are proof of it.
    ^^What H.G. said.^^

    You can not rationalize with someone who is irrational.

    Both examples that ExSoldier gave are totally irrational non-thinking I.D. 10 T's.
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. — Winston Churchill

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    25,992
    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    This makes no more sense than anti-abortion folks killing people that work for the clinics "because they are murderers and they don't believe in murder." Did they just not commit murder themselves?
    The basic logic is like that used by the righteous soldier, who understands that his actions (killing others) result in ultimately reducing the future ability of others (the enemy) to commit heinous acts. The folks who take out abortion docs are essentially relying on similar logic in attempting to justify their killing of others. In such situations, people rationalize the choosing of the lesser of two evils.

    But most folks can understand some of the choices made in war. And I think it's reasonably easy to understand where folks are coming from who believe that taking out abortion clinic workers can be justified.

    This thread, though, is about a person who believed that merely having a firearm from a certain era with certain features justified murdering that person for all the perceived thoughts such people must have simply by having the product in their safes. THAT is a completely different category of claim, as compared to that of the soldier, obviously so IMO. It's on a par with the thinking of the murderers who take out abortion clinic docs, justifying their commission of murder on the basis of their personal affront at someone else's actions, even though those actions are legal and acceptable in the society.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Gulf Coast of Florida
    Posts
    9,331
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    The basic logic is like that used by the righteous soldier, who understands that his actions (killing others) result in ultimately reducing the future ability of others (the enemy) to commit heinous acts. The folks who take out abortion docs are essentially relying on similar logic in attempting to justify their killing of others. In such situations, people rationalize the choosing of the lesser of two evils.

    But most folks can understand some of the choices made in war. And I think it's reasonably easy to understand where folks are coming from who believe that taking out abortion clinic workers can be justified.

    This thread, though, is about a person who believed that merely having a firearm from a certain era with certain features justified murdering that person for all the perceived thoughts such people must have simply by having the product in their safes. THAT is a completely different category of claim, as compared to that of the soldier, obviously so IMO. It's on a par with the thinking of the murderers who take out abortion clinic docs, justifying their commission of murder on the basis of their personal affront at someone else's actions, even though those actions are legal and acceptable in the society.
    I'm not exactly sure what you just said, so I guess I don't subscribe to whatever logic can justify getting a machine gun to kill people who have machine guns (presumably because they kill people). It just sounds like good old fashioned, toys in the attic, drop their bucket in the well and it don't get wet CRAZY. And you can't argue logic with crazy.

    Like I've been told before, when you stumble across a big pot of crazy...don't stir it. Sneak off quietly and avoid it.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Group Buy for 200 grain SWC .358 Mold
    By Landric in forum Reloading
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: September 22nd, 2009, 07:24 PM
  2. WTS Bianchi Accu Mold Padlle Holster for 3" K Frame NC
    By Sportsterguy in forum Member Buy, Sell & Trade
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: January 24th, 2009, 06:32 PM
  3. Have any of our custom makers found a mold for the XD-M yet?
    By Chooie in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: July 30th, 2008, 04:45 PM
  4. Leather Mold
    By familyman in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: September 20th, 2006, 05:08 PM
  5. Don't Tell The Antis About this!
    By Euclidean in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: April 20th, 2005, 10:54 AM

Search tags for this page

abortion

Click on a term to search for related topics.