Unclear on the Gun Show Debate

Unclear on the Gun Show Debate

This is a discussion on Unclear on the Gun Show Debate within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I've never been to a gun show, and would like to understand the supposed "gunshow loophole". Can someone please explain the process of buying a ...

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Thread: Unclear on the Gun Show Debate

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    Unclear on the Gun Show Debate

    I've never been to a gun show, and would like to understand the supposed "gunshow loophole". Can someone please explain the process of buying a gun there.
    Specific questions:
    1: Are there people selling their personal guns that do not have FFL's?
    2: Can I buy a handgun (for sake of argument) from an non-FFL vendor?
    3: Is a non-FFL vendor required to obtain any information from me, ie drivers license, etc?

    Note: I am firmly against additional laws of any kind that would restrict in any way the RKBA. I just want to understand the "Gun Show" debate.
    I believe those on this forum, like myself, would be responsible in selling firearms, and I'm not planning on buying or selling any guns in the nearterm, I'm just looking for the answers to the specific questions above, so I can understand the debate.

    Thanks
    hayzor


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    Quick answer:
    There is nothing you can do inside a gun show that you can't do outside a gun show.

    Licensed dealers have to comply with dealer regulations regardless of the venue.

    Private transfers really don't have much in the way of federal requirements, but check your state laws.

    Almost everyone you will see at a gun show selling guns is a federal licensee. You might see a collector with a table, and there might be a couple guys wandering about with a gun for sale, but they are not as prevalent as actual dealers.
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  3. #3
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    1: Are there people selling their personal guns that do not have FFL's?
    2: Can I buy a handgun (for sake of argument) from an non-FFL vendor?
    3: Is a non-FFL vendor required to obtain any information from me, ie drivers license, etc?
    I'll tell you how it is here in my state. I've bought from FFLs, and I've bought from individuals personal collections at gun shows. I've bought, traded, and sold firearms myself to individuals with no FFL on either side. Part of our freedoms to do so as citizens of this great land.

    1. Are there people selling their personal guns that do not have FFL's?
    Yes...here it's allowed. Anyone can rent a table at a gun show and buy/sell/trade as they wish so long as it does not violate any Federal laws such as class III and the like (machine guns, grenades, land mines, etc...)
    2. Can I buy a handgun (for sake of argument) from an non-FFL vendor?
    In my state you can. It's sort of a two part question you've asked...most "vendors" will be FFL. Non-FFLs will be regular citizens as discussed in the previous reply.....not actual "vendors". I can put an ad in the local newspaper and do the same thing without paying $40 for a table. Then again, I'm not making it a habit to sell firearms, or more than a couple at any given time.
    3. Is a non-FFL vendor required to obtain any information from me, ie drivers license, etc?
    Here in my state again.....no. A personal firearm transaction between two people there is no requirement to exchange information
    Now.....I have done transactions where I have documentation, and I've done transactions where the other party wanted documentation. If I wanted to sell to an individual, I could actually request they fill out a yellow sheet for my records, or they could request one from me. All in all, between non-FFLs, any hand written account of the serial numbers, names, addresses, etc......should suffice for a record of the transaction. I've done plenty of personal transactions with no records at all, but shaking hands, exchanging money, or other goods in trade where both parties are satisfied. Now.....if you buy from an FFL, and the item is for sale, and not one of "personal collection", then there will need to be records. Buying or selling or trading out of your state of residence may have implications. That's a whole other discussion we don't want to get into here.
    Unclear on the Gun Show Debate
    I wasn't aware of any debate on gun shows.....I say keep 'em alive! As far as any "loopholes", you've got to look to the source that coined the term to realize that the definition of the word doesn't actually fit anywhere under the constitution, nor pertain to any American citizen. The "loopholes" you've heard about are propaganda, and that's about it. Actual loopholes are tools for lawyers, and that's all we need to know.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Yes there will most likely be people there selling guns that don't have FFLs.

    Yes you can buy a gun from a non FFL dealer.

    No a non FFL isn't required to obtain anything from you, they just can't sell to you if they know you are prohibited from purchasing or owning a firearm.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Array lance22's Avatar
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    The goal is to outlaw private sales and private transfer. They call this the 'gunshow loophole' even though it has nothing to do with gunshows.

    When you die, do you want to pass on your guns to your children? That will be outlawed when they ban private sales and private transfer. Passing on your guns would become the same thing that a 'Straw Purchase' is now and it would land your dead corpse in a Federal Prison, also whoever you tried to will your firearms to would land in said prison.

    I want the same gun rights that we had back when this nation was founded. I don't want more than that. We are fighting to keep what we already have. And that is one of the reasons why I oppose more gun laws. They expect me to give up something when they give up nothing and they call this a 'compromise'?
    Last edited by lance22; February 2nd, 2010 at 08:53 PM.

  6. #6
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    Gun shows are fun! Gun nuts, uh...people who enjoy and use and buy and sell and swap bullshi, uh...stories and guns gather to chatter and look at the big-boy, uh...person toys. Therefore, people who hate guns might likewise dislike them and what they do, like New York City Mayor Michael Bloomturd, and similar Brady Bunch gals and guys with their rats and spies. You too may be on TV! Of course, send your donations to them in Washington, D.C., so they can pose and peform and whine for free newspaper space and TV time. Hey, you got me off on this rant! Go to those gun shows and peform for these media 'hos.

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array C9H13NO3's Avatar
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    It's all about private sale. For them to close the so called "gun show loophole", they would also have to make all face to face private sales illegal.
    -Ryan

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

  8. #8
    Member Array Holger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C9H13NO3 View Post
    It's all about private sale. For them to close the so called "gun show loophole", they would also have to make all face to face private sales illegal.
    Yup, and it goes even further. Lance22 was spot on regarding the real trouble with closing the supposed "loophole." This is a big deal in Virginia, seeing as how Bloomberg and the VPC think every gun crime committed outside our Commonwealth was perpetrated by someone who bought a gun at a VA gun show. Even the VA Tech massacre families are on board with closing this non-existent loophole to prevent the "next massacre," never mind the fact the POS murderer bought his guns at a gun shop. But I digress.

    Imagine a grandfather in SW VA trying to pass his guns along to his children and grandchildren, or me trying to give one of my handguns to my brother, or you selling your old wheel gun to a bro for $100. THAT is the supposed loophole, and like someone said earlier, nothing goes on inside a gun show that can't go on outside a gun show.

    Finally, crimes committed with guns bought from private sellers are so infinitesimally small it's surprising they're even tracked. Enacting legislation to close this supposed loophole would have absolutely zero effect on the crime rate in VA or anywhere else. Just another way for anti-gunners to do something that "feels" good yet accomplishes nothing. Standard.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array Ring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hayzor View Post
    I've never been to a gun show, and would like to understand the supposed "gunshow loophole". Can someone please explain the process of buying a gun there.
    Specific questions:
    1: Are there people selling their personal guns that do not have FFL's?
    2: Can I buy a handgun (for sake of argument) from an non-FFL vendor?
    3: Is a non-FFL vendor required to obtain any information from me, ie drivers license, etc?

    Note: I am firmly against additional laws of any kind that would restrict in any way the RKBA. I just want to understand the "Gun Show" debate.
    I believe those on this forum, like myself, would be responsible in selling firearms, and I'm not planning on buying or selling any guns in the nearterm, I'm just looking for the answers to the specific questions above, so I can understand the debate.

    Thanks
    hayzor
    laws at the show are the same as laws in your house...


    if you want to give your gun to your son or wife, do you have to conduct a backround check?

  10. #10
    Member Array gilliland87's Avatar
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    THe others have hit it spot on in previous posts

    It seems your questions have been answered and I would say in the majority of states those answers are true.

    To stray a little bit I would like to mention that a private citizen without a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is NOT an arms dealer. I am *sure* there are criteria listings and classifications outlining what constitutes a dealer. I am unsure of those criteria and will not venture to guess at them. If I sell a car privately It does not make me an auto dealer.


    edit- after posting I realized I am not sure there are criteria outlining what qualifies a person as a dealer and have started another thread with that exact same question as the topic. I have always assumed there was a definition of a dealer somewhere on the books but everyone knows what happens when you assume.
    Last edited by gilliland87; February 3rd, 2010 at 12:01 AM. Reason: Clarification of point.

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