Just an article from the news this morning

This is a discussion on Just an article from the news this morning within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I hope I have this posted in the correct place, here it is. Taken from the news this morning. States Signing on to Deadly Force ...

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    Senior Member Array .45acp's Avatar
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    Just an article from the news this morning

    I hope I have this posted in the correct place, here it is. Taken from the news this morning.

    States Signing on to Deadly Force Law
    By ROBERT TANNER, AP National Writer
    Wed May 24, 8:28 PM

    A campaign by gun rights advocates to make it easier to use deadly force in self-defense is rapidly winning support across the country, as state after state makes it legal for people who feel their lives are in danger to shoot down an attacker _ whether in a car-jacking or just on the street.

    The law has spurred debate about whether it protects against lawlessness or spurs more crime. Supporters say it's an unambiguous answer to random violence, while critics _ including police chiefs and prosecutors _ warn that criminals are more likely to benefit than innocent victims.

    Ten states so far this year have passed a version of the law, after Florida was the first last year. It's already being considered in Arizona in the case of a deadly shooting on a hiking trail.

    Supporters have dubbed the new measures "stand your ground" laws, while critics offered nicknames like the "shoot first," "shoot the Avon lady" or "right to commit murder" laws.

    At its core, they broaden self-defense by removing the requirement in most states that a person who is attacked has a "duty to retreat" before turning to deadly force. Many of the laws specify that people can use deadly force if they believe they are in danger in any place they have a legal right to be _ a parking lot, a street, a bar, a church. They also give immunity from criminal charges and civil liability.

    The campaign is simply about self-defense, said Oklahoma state Rep. Kevin Calvey, a Republican and author of the law in his state. "Law-abiding citizens aren't going to take it anymore," he said.

    "It's going to give the crooks second thoughts about carjackings and things like that. They're going to get a face full of lead," Calvey said. He introduced the bill at the request of the local National Rifle Association, and it passed with overwhelmingly support: The House agreed 83-4, the Senate 39-5.

    Democratic Gov. Brad Henry signed it and said: "This act will allow law-abiding Oklahomans to protect themselves, their loved ones and their property."

    Besides Oklahoma, the nine other states to sign on are Arizona, Alabama, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Mississippi and South Dakota, according to the NRA.

    Critics say the NRA is overstating its success. Only six of those states expanded self-defense into public places, said Zach Ragbourn, a spokesman at the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. There already is a presumption in law that a person does not have to retreat in their home or car, he said.

    And there have been a few high-profile defeats, too.

    In New Hampshire, the measure passed the legislature only narrowly and then was vetoed by Democratic Gov. John Lynch, who was joined by police and prosecutors.

    Police Chief Nathaniel H. Sawyer Jr. of New Hampton, N.H., said the legislation addressed a problem that does not exist. In 26 years in law enforcement, he has never seen anyone wrongfully charged with a crime for self-defense, he said.

    "I think it increases the chance for violence," said Sawyer, also the president of the New Hampshire Association of Police Chiefs. "It increases the chance of innocent people being around the violence and becoming involved in it or hurt."

    The bill would have allowed a person "to use deadly force in response to non-deadly force, even in public places such as shopping malls, public streets, restaurants and churches," Lynch said when he vetoed the legislation. Existing law already gives citizens the right to protect themselves, he said.

    The NRA argues that victims wind up with an unfair burden if the law, as it does in New Hampshire, requires a duty to retreat, if possible. "That does crime victims little good when they have to make a split-second decision to protect their life from violent attack by a criminal," said Wayne LaPierre, the NRA's executive director.

    "The only people that have anything to fear from this type of law is someone who plans on robbing, shooting or raping someone," LaPierre said.

    That argument sounds good and it's winning supporters, said Florida state Rep. Dan Gelber, a critic of the law when it passed in his state last year and a former federal prosecutor.

    But like Sawyer in New Hampshire, he does not see any instances now or in the past of a victim being prosecuted for failing to retreat. He sees the Florida law, and the national campaign, as an effort by the NRA to build support and keep its members riled up.

    "The NRA is a victim of its own successes. No political party in Florida today is going to advance any serious gun-control agenda," said Gelber, a Democrat. "What's left is these little things which have no impact on every day life, but inspire and activate the base."

    And, he argued, it gives defense attorneys a potential avenue to seek acquittal for crimes. In effect, criminals will benefit much more often than any innocent victim. "It's going to give the guy who's really looking for a fight, or does something totally irresponsible or venal, a defense he would not otherwise have."

    Last week in Arizona, the state appellate court delayed the start of jury deliberations in the trial of a retired school teacher charged with second-degree murder for shooting a man on a hiking trail in May 2004. The court is deciding whether the new law applies to his claim of self-defense.

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    Playing with semantics, I'd say that I agree, this has nothing to do with everyday life. However, it has everything to do the ten seconds, once in a few people's lives in which you are forced to shoot someone to defend yourself. Makes a big difference.

    And then to say it helps the criminals and not the victims. Baloney! (see, I was nice)

    aaaaargh!
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

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    Police Chief Nathaniel H. Sawyer Jr. of New Hampton, N.H., said the legislation addressed a problem that does not exist. In 26 years in law enforcement, he has never seen anyone wrongfully charged with a crime for self-defense, he said.

    Notice what Chief Sawyer does not say: 1) That he has never seen anyone lose everything they have in an effort to defend himself in a civil case brought by a criminal or his family; 2) That he never saw anyone have to spend a great deal of money to prevent himself from being charged with a crime for self-defense; 3) That he never saw anyone charged with a crime that under the new law would have been considered self-defense. This was a carefully worded statement that basically says nothing. The other thing about this statement is that in Sawyer's opinion the only people charged were rightfully charged. In other words, Sawyer's people never make mistakes.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

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    criminals are more likely to benefit than innocent victims
    Sorry - that's a false spin IMO - totally fallacious.

    What this does do is, if BG's have even a grain of sense - is make them think even more about trying to commit crime and if they choose to be armed then the chances of their lights going out just goes up a notch.

    Sawyer is speaking with forked tongue!
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_cmg
    Police Chief Nathaniel H. Sawyer Jr. of New Hampton, N.H., said the legislation addressed a problem that does not exist. In 26 years in law enforcement, he has never seen anyone wrongfully charged with a crime for self-defense, he said.

    Notice what Chief Sawyer does not say: 1) That he has never seen anyone lose everything they have in an effort to defend himself in a civil case brought by a criminal or his family; 2) That he never saw anyone have to spend a great deal of money to prevent himself from being charged with a crime for self-defense; 3) That he never saw anyone charged with a crime that under the new law would have been considered self-defense. This was a carefully worded statement that basically says nothing. The other thing about this statement is that in Sawyer's opinion the only people charged were rightfully charged. In other words, Sawyer's people never make mistakes.


    Exactly my thoughts when I read that part. It's pretty easy to say no one has been wrongfuly charged when it's your side choosing who does and does not get charged.

    Just my 2 cents.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

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    Our law in OK takes effect on Nov. 1st, hope to see the rest of the states get this legislation soon!
    Curry

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCurry1
    Our law in OK takes effect on Nov. 1st, hope to see the rest of the states get this legislation soon!
    Ours in Alabama goes into effect June 1. I hope I never have to avail myself of it, but I'm grateful that it is there.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Boy did you nail that one dr.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr_cmg
    Police Chief Nathaniel H. Sawyer Jr. of New Hampton, N.H., said the legislation addressed a problem that does not exist. In 26 years in law enforcement, he has never seen anyone wrongfully charged with a crime for self-defense, he said.

    Notice what Chief Sawyer does not say: 1) That he has never seen anyone lose everything they have in an effort to defend himself in a civil case brought by a criminal or his family; 2) That he never saw anyone have to spend a great deal of money to prevent himself from being charged with a crime for self-defense; 3) That he never saw anyone charged with a crime that under the new law would have been considered self-defense. This was a carefully worded statement that basically says nothing. The other thing about this statement is that in Sawyer's opinion the only people charged were rightfully charged. In other words, Sawyer's people never make mistakes.
    That was exactly what I was thinking when I read it.
    This should be the law of the land IMHO.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    Yeah,now for a USofA CWP.Good throughout the 50 states and it's posessions.

    We the people(the GG's) seem to be finally starting to "come even" with the BG's. We can arm ourselves,and we can shoot. Just like the BG's. Funny how that makes some of the people mad.

    Seems that down here the car "jackinz" are starting to get few and far between. The perps are starting to,very carefully,pick their vic's. They mostly take the old ladies or the younger mothers with kids in the car. These people need to realize that if they are leaving us males,in the vech. by ourselves alone,then their target is the people that have a higher probability of NOT being armed.

    This is why I teach the ladies and absolutely love to see the mothers with children, practice and carry. --------

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    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_cmg
    Ours in Alabama goes into effect June 1. I hope I never have to avail myself of it, but I'm grateful that it is there.
    The Virginia law bill, HB879, died in committee, this session.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom357
    The Virginia law bill, HB879, died in committee, this session.
    Time to elect a new committee. It works everytime. The new group of legislators remembers (at least for a while) that they got elected over the incompetent, incumbents for just that reason - they did not do what the people wanted them to. Of course after a while that lesson starts to fade and it is time to bring in a new group to remind the others why they are there.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

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