Putting the STAR in Starbucks!

Putting the STAR in Starbucks!

This is a discussion on Putting the STAR in Starbucks! within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Read this article this AM and thought I would share it. Thank You Starbucks for your support! Buzz and Bullets: Gun Fans Cheer Starbucks - ...

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  1. #1
    New Member Array slimjim97702's Avatar
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    Putting the STAR in Starbucks!

    Read this article this AM and thought I would share it.

    Thank You Starbucks for your support!

    Buzz and Bullets: Gun Fans Cheer Starbucks - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

    Buzz and Bullets: Gun Fans Cheer Starbucks
    Monday, March 01, 2010


    Dale Welch recently walked into a Starbucks in Virginia, handgun strapped to his waist, and ordered a banana Frappuccino with a cinnamon bun. He says the firearm drew a double-take from at least one customer, but not a peep from the baristas.

    Welch's foray into the coffeehouse was part of an effort by some gun owners to exercise and advertise their rights in states that allow people to openly carry firearms.

    Even in some "open carry" states, businesses are allowed to ban guns in their stores. And some have, creating political confrontations with gun owners. But Starbucks, the largest chain targeted, has refused to take the bait, saying in a statement this month that it follows state and local laws and has its own safety measures in its stores.

    "Starbucks is a special target because it's from the hippie West Coast, and a lot of dedicated consumers who pay $4 for coffee have expectations that Starbucks would ban guns. And here they aren't," said John Bruce, a political science professor at the University of Mississippi who is an expert in gun policy.

    Welch, a 71-year-old retired property manager who lives in Richmond, Va., doesn't see any reason why he shouldn't bear arms while he gets caffeinated.


    "I don't know of anybody who would provide me with defense other than myself, so I routinely as a way of life carry a weapon — and that extends to my coffee shops," he said.

    The fight for retailers heated up in early January when gun enthusiasts in northern California began walking into Starbucks and other businesses to test state laws that allow gun owners to carry weapons openly in public places. As it spread to other states, gun control groups quickly complained about the parade of firearms in local stores.

    Some were spontaneous, with just one or two gun owners walking into a store. Others were organized parades of dozens of gun owners walking into restaurants with their firearms proudly at their sides.

    In one case, about 100 activists bearing arms had planned to go to a California Pizza Kitchen in Walnut Creek, Calif., but after it became clear they weren't welcome they went to another restaurant. That chain and Peet's Coffee & Tea are among the businesses that have banned customers with guns.

    Just as shops can deny service to barefoot customers, restaurants and stores in some states can declare their premises gun-free zones.

    The advocacy group OpenCarry.org, a leading group encouraging the demonstrations, applauded Starbucks in a statement for "deciding not to discriminate against lawful gun carriers."

    "Starbucks is seen as a responsible corporation and they're seen as a very progressive corporation, and this policy is very much in keeping with that," said John Pierce, co-founder of OpenCarry.org. "If you're going to support individual rights, you have to support them all. I applaud them, and I've gone out of my way personally to let every manager of every Starbucks I pass know that."

    The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence has responded by circulating a petition that soon attracted 26,000 signatures demanding that Starbucks "offer espresso shots, not gunshots" and declare its coffeehouses "gun-free zones."

    Gun control advocates hope the coffeehouse firearms displays end up aggravating more people than they inspire.

    "If you want to dress up and go out and make a little political theater by frightening children in the local Starbucks, if that's what you want to spend your energy on, go right ahead," said Peter Hamm, a spokesman for the Brady campaign. "But going out and wearing a gun on your belt to show the world you're allowed to is a little juvenile."

    The coffeehouse debate has been particularly poignant for gun-control advocates in Washington state, where four uniformed police officers were shot and killed while working on their laptops at a suburban coffeehouse. The shooter later died in a gun battle with police.

    Ralph Fascitelli of Washington Ceasefire, an advocacy group that seeks to reduce gun violence, said allowing guns in coffeehouses robs residents of "societal sanctuaries."

    "People go to Starbucks for an escape, just so they can get peace," Fascitelli said. "But people walk in with open-carry guns and it destroys the tranquility."

    Gun control advocates have been on the defensive. Their opponents have trumpeted fears that gun rights would erode under a Democrat-led White House and Congress, but President Barack Obama and his top allies have largely been silent on issues such as reviving an assault weapons ban or strengthening background checks at gun shows.

    Gun rights groups are looking to build on a 2008 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that struck down Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban, and cheered legislation that took effect Monday allowing licensed gun owners to bring firearms into national parks. Obama signed that legislation as part of a broader bill.

    Legislators in Montana and Tennessee, meanwhile, have passed measures seeking to exempt guns made and kept in-state from national gun control laws. And state lawmakers elsewhere are considering legislation that would give residents more leeway to carry concealed weapons without permits.

    Observers say the gun rights movement is using the Starbucks campaign to add momentum and energize its supporters.

    "They're trying to change the culture with this broader notion of gun rights," said Clyde Wilcox, a Georgetown University government professor who has written a book on the politics of gun control. "I think they are pressing the notion that they've got a rout going, so why not just get what they can while they're ahead?"
    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose." -- James Earl Jones


  2. #2
    New Member Array SkydiverRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim97702 View Post

    "They're trying to change the culture with this broader notion of gun rights," said Clyde Wilcox, a Georgetown University government professor who has written a book on the politics of gun control. "I think they are pressing the notion that they've got a rout going, so why not just get what they can while they're ahead?"
    How much broader than "shall not be infringed" can you get?

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    *sigh*

    Starbucks doesn't even care about making statements about for or against gun control they just want to make a buck... its all the pros and antis that play tug of war dragging Starbucks through the political mud. Its just sad that its SUCH A BIG DEAL that Starbucks allows open carry in their stores.

    I applaud the efforts of Starbucks for being independant and sticking to principles they set forth by not making rules just cause so and so said to.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  4. #4
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    i stopped in Starbuck's earlier today, for a coffee date, carrying my 1911, openly. one guy saw it, his eyes dropping from his face, into his throat, down to where his testicles should have been, but obviously weren't. he grabbed his soy-chai-triple-latte-exta-foam-americano-mocha whatever, and ran out. my ladyfriend noticed, and lughed. everyone else raised their heads momentarliy, then went back to what they were doing.

    how juvenile of us.

  5. #5
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    If carrying is considered juvenile, then how childish is it to bury oneself in some fantasy world where a gun ban will preserve the "tranquility" of having morning coffee? Hey, I've got an idea, suppose every coffee shop had a uniformed LEO sitting in it. No criminal would DARE enter a coffee shop with a "Guns Banned" sign and an armed LEO inside... right?
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    cafepress.com/bgstudios

  6. #6
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    Fair CBS coverage

    @ News - wtvr

    CBS Richmond VA
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  7. #7
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    isn't it funny that Starbuck's, a longtime bastion of left wing nuttiness and mewling liberals, has been invaded by a customer base who, in most cases, never have set foot in there before?

    sometimes, irony is better than pie.

  8. #8
    VIP Member
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    Good coverage on ABC...

    with a VCDL picnic video clip.

    Gun Owners Tout 'Open Carry' Rights - ABC News

    Understanding the 'Guy With the Gun'
    As Starbucks Gun Controversy Boils, Open Carry Movement Shoots Into Spotlight
    By ALICE GOMSTYN
    ABC NEWS Business Unit
    March 2, 2010

    Ed Levine said he remembers when people at his favorite restaurants used to know him as "the guy with the gun."

    It's a label that's faded, the Virginia man said, as more people like him have chosen to openly carry their handguns while running everyday errands. Levine said he carries his 45-caliber pistol nearly everywhere he goes, from his local Starbucks to his community pool, and he rarely draws attention.

    "It's like putting on your socks -- you do it every day," he said. "Someone doesn't run up to you and say, 'Oh, you're wearing socks.'"

    The practice of "open carry" at retail stores -- carrying a handgun in plain sight -- has come under fire from anti-gun activists in recent weeks after open carry proponents tested California's gun laws by bringing their guns with them to several Golden State stores, including Starbucks.

    In response, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence called on the coffee giant to ban firearms at its stores. The group is concerned about accidental firings, untrained gun owners and the welfare of those "who want to enjoy their coffee without putting themselves at risk of gunshot," Brady spokesman Doug Pennington said.

    The Brady petition demanding a Starbucks gun ban now bears 28,000 signatures, with some signers saying they'll choose other coffee retailers, including Peet's Coffee and Tea, which recently announced it would prohibit guns at its shops, the spokesman said.

    A Starbucks spokesman declined a request for an interview about the open carry issue, instead providing a statement: "For Starbucks, the safety of our customers and partners is a paramount concern. We have existing security protocols in place to handle situations related to safety in our stores. We will continue to adhere closely to local, state and federal laws and the counsel of law enforcement regarding this issue."

    Meanwhile, two chains in addition to Peet's, California Pizza Kitchen and California-based Buckhorn Grill, have said they're banning guns at their stores.

    While the Starbucks controversy may soon force more businesses to confront their gun-carry policies -- retail analyst Lori Wachs says that, until now, most chains have opted to avoid the hot button issue -- it's also raising the profile of the open carry movement and groups like OpenCarry.org.

    The online community claims at least 26,000 members. OpenCarry.org co-founder Mike Stollenwerk said he and fellow Virginian John Pierce started the Web site in 2004.

    The year before, Stollenwerk and several friends caused alarm at a Reston, Va., restaurant when they showed up for dinner with their guns in their holsters. At the time, even police officers called to the restaurant were confused about the state's open carry law, Stollenwerk said.

    Confronting 'Prejudice' Against Guns
    Stollenwerk and Pierce said they founded the Web site to educate people, including law enforcement officials, about open carry rights across the states. Though many states require permits for the concealed carrying of firearms, most don't regulate open carry.

    The group is also working to "normalize the open carry of firearms," Pierce said.

    "By open carrying, we're forcing people to confront the object of their prejudice," he said. "It's just like when gay and lesbian couple express affection in public -- it forces people to realize their friends, their neighbors, their relatives, their loves ones are in fact people who might live differently than they do but they're no less good people and they're no less good citizens."

    "We never knew what this was going to turn into," Stollenwerk said. "We were just two guys following Virginia law, open carrying, and the next thing we know it's a movement."

    The movement includes Levine. Along with his holstered pistol, the 48-year-old carries a small card with him detailing information on Virginians' open carry rights. He'll gladly pass it to anyone who questions his open carry decision -- not that he has to.

    Levine, who lives in Potomac Falls, Va., says people ask him about his gun about once a week, and the questions are almost never negative. Often, he says, they're just interested in firearms training -- though Levine works in telecommunications by day, he's also a firearms instructor with the National Rifle Association.

    Levine's 12-year-old daughter Brooke has been trained to use her own gun, a .22LR Caliber pistol. When the pair are together and someone asks her father why he's packing, Levine says Brooke has a ready answer: In a takeoff of a Mastercard commercial, Brooke points to the gun and says "$1,000" and then points to herself and says "priceless" -- a suggestion that the pretty penny Levine had to spend to buy the gun was worth it to protect his invaluable daughter.

    Protecting himself and his family is why he carries a gun, Levine said. He has a concealed handgun permit that would allow him to be more discrete with his gun if he wanted to, but Levine says he often prefers to open carry because it's more comfortable and he has easier access to his gun if he needs it.

    He hasn't needed it yet, he added.

    "I hope I never do," he said.
    The video sort of commingles the OC and VCDL -- which is fair & OK. After all the two organizations are somewhat commingled here in Virginia membership wise and support each other, as the picnic illustrates.
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  9. #9
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    More from the UK

    Gun lovers in the US test law by wearing weapons to Starbucks - Times Online

    Gun lovers in the US test law by wearing weapons to Starbucks

    IT is not exactly Gunfight at the OK Corral — more like Lattes at High Noon — but Starbucks, the coffee chain, has become an unlikely battleground for American gun owners campaigning to carry their weapons openly in public.

    Last Thursday morning Jim Snyder walked into a Starbucks branch in Virginia and ordered a tall hot chocolate without cream. On his left hip was his mobile phone. On his right hip was a semi-automatic Browning pistol.

    The coffee bar was busy with customers, including a group of mothers with children in pushchairs. Nobody blinked an eyelid.

    “I don’t see why I shouldn’t wear my gun to go to a coffee bar,” said Snyder, 59. “If businesses say you can’t bring in a gun, that’s discrimination against a person for doing something that’s legal. It’s like saying we won’t serve people with blue shirts.

    “I see my gun as insurance,” he added. “Like I have life insurance to protect my family, car insurance to protect my car, house insurance to protect my house.”

    Snyder never used to be a customer of Starbucks. But the past few weeks have seen gun enthusiasts flocking to the coffee chain. They are part of the so-called Open Carry movement testing the laws in the 42 states that allow gun owners to carry weapons in public.

    Anti-firearms campaigners have collected 40,000 signatures calling on Starbucks to ban firearms.

    Last week the chain pleaded to be left alone. “Advocacy groups from both sides of this issue have chosen to use Starbucks as a way to draw attention to their positions,” the Seattle company said in a statement.

    “The political, policy and legal debates around these issues belong in the legislatures and courts, not in our stores.”

    Many Americans are fiercely protective of their right to carry guns despite high-profile school shootings such as the Columbine massacre in Colorado in 1999, in which 15 died, and the shootings at Virginia Tech in April 2007, when a student shot and killed 32 before turning his gun on himself.

    “The right to bear arms is a fundamental right and part of what our founding fathers put in the constitution,” said Ed Levine, a member of Open Carry in Virginia. “That’s not for any coffee bar to decide.”

    Levine, who last week went for chicken wings at the Buffalo Wing Factory in Sterling with 34 friends all packing pistols, said that “carrying a gun is like wearing socks. It’s part of your wardrobe. Like an accessory — but one that saves lives”.

    Gun sales rose 39% last year and 24 states passed laws to ease restrictions on gun ownership. Arizona and Virginia recently approved bills making it legal to carry concealed weapons in bars. Tennessee voted to allow guns in playgrounds.

    The Supreme Court is expected to end a 30-year ban on handguns soon in Chicago. The appeal comes 18 months after it lifted a similar ban in Washington. A wave of similar challenges is expected across the country.

    Gun control lobbyists say President Barack Obama has failed to deliver on campaign promises to close loopholes that allow unlicensed dealers at gun shows to sell firearms without background checks or to clamp down on the trafficking of illegal guns.

    Instead, Obama has signed bills allowing guns to be carried on trains and in national parks. “He’s signed a couple of pieces of legislation that weakened the few gun laws on the books,” said Paul Helmke, president of the pro-gun control Brady campaign.
    BTW -- Jim Snyder is the VP of the VCDL.

    “He’s signed a couple of pieces of legislation that weakened the few gun laws on the books,” said Paul Helmke,
    --- what the . Anyone have an estimate as to how many there are?
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  10. #10
    Member Array wildcatCWP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    --- what the . Anyone have an estimate as to how many there are?
    I'm guessing he's referring to the Credit Card act from last year (which had an amendment attached that allows carry in National Parks) and the Amtrak bill. Neither of which are all that great (you can't discharge in NPs, even for self defense, and the Amtrak bill has a typo which says the person, not the gun, must be locked away in storage.)

  11. #11
    VIP Member
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    I should have been clearer.

    What the was referring to the alleged the "few gun laws on the books" which Paul Helmke said Obama had weakened, when he signed those two.

    I wonder if anyone has a estimate how many "gun laws there are in this country.

    FWIIW -- I have not seen what I would call 'definitive' "proof" of the number but 20,000 is so often cited, and with 3,000++ counties in America (many who have their own regulations/laws) I can't really believe the number of 20k is too high.
    Last edited by DaveH; March 7th, 2010 at 05:32 PM.
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    "They're trying to change the culture with this broader notion of gun rights," said Clyde Wilcox, a Georgetown University government professor who has written a book on the politics of gun control. "I think they are pressing the notion that they've got a rout going, so why not just get what they can while they're ahead?"
    Trying to return the culture back to its rational and morally-upstanding roots, you mean.

    The culture started out fully understanding the simple principles and benefits of security, an armed society, and being armed while going about your day's activities. Somewhere along the line in the past century those foundation principles got shoved off a cliff for political reasons.

    "Changing" the culture? I think not. Rather, it's "taking back" what was right and good about the culture to begin with. Being secure against crime isn't a bad thing. Not bad at all. The sooner that the Chicken Littles realize this (ie, Brady Bunch & similar), the better off we'll all be.


    The article that Dave posted about the OC "movement" indicates they seek to:

    Confronting 'Prejudice' Against Guns

    ... to educate people, including law enforcement officials, about open carry rights across the states.

    ... to "normalize the open carry of firearms ...
    Forcing society to confront its prejudice isn't a bad thing. It's not a threat. It's not going to change the world.

    It's simply attempting to get the unjust laws off the backs of upstanding citizens who are simply attempting to live upstanding lives in a manner that harks back to the honorable and morally-upstanding foundation years of the free states.

    Being armed forces people to stop using force against citizens, demanding instead that they use logic and reason to compel citizens to do what is being asked of them. That's as it should be.

    Foreign and domestic. Foreign and domestic.



    Why I carry a gun.

    PEOPLE ASK WHY I CARRY A GUN

    Why I Carry a Gun

    My old grandpa said to me son,’ there comes a time in every mans life when he stops bustin’ knuckles and starts bustin’ caps and usually it’s when he becomes too old to take an a$$ whoopin’.

    I don’t carry a gun to kill people.
    I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

    I don’t carry a gun to scare people.
    I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.

    I don’t carry a gun because I’m paranoid.
    I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.

    I don’t carry a gun because I’m evil.
    I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.

    I don’t carry a gun because I hate the government.
    I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.

    I don’t carry a gun because I’m angry.
    I carry a gun so that I don’t have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.

    I don’t carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.

    I don’t carry a gun because I’m a cowboy.
    I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.

    I don’t carry a gun to make me feel like a man.
    I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.

    I don’t carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
    I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.

    I don’t carry a gun because I love it.
    I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

    Police Protection is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect themselves.
    Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.

    Personally, I carry a gun because I’m too young to die and too old to take an a$$ whoopin’.

    Author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

    Why I carry a gun. It comes down to Reason and Force:

    The Reason for Carrying a Gun

    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger , and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

    There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

    Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation..and that's why carrying a gun is a /civilized/ act.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    I wonder if anyone has a estimate how many "gun laws there are in this country.
    A quick check of Oregon shows the following: 100 statutes in the ORS 166.* chapter; plus another dozen peppered throughout ORS 161, 163, 164 and some other chapters. Figure, 120 total, to include the few that are sure to be buried in dark corners somewhere. Multiplying by 50 states, a rough estimate would be:

    ~6000, nationwide USA. (50 x 120 = 6000.)
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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